Random ROH Thoughts Thread

[dhads7161]

To blame the fans is asinine. Johnston has pit on ZERO effort with anybody else even those who are already made stars how can the fans be blamed for that?

[maxx_powerz]

Because they buy all the tickets regardless of the quality of the product?

[kovs27]

To blame the fans is asinine. Johnston has pit on ZERO effort with anybody else even those who are already made stars how can the fans be blamed for that?

The fans do deserve a measure of blame. I got to a lot of shows in NY and Philly. A good portion of fans in New York don't watch the tv show, don't follow the product and just want to cheer Bullet Club and do silly chants during other matches. Philadelphia does better. Guys like the Kingdom, Lethal, Dalton Castle get better reactions there.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

To blame the fans is asinine. Johnston has pit on ZERO effort with anybody else even those who are already made stars how can the fans be blamed for that?

The fans do deserve a measure of blame. I got to a lot of shows in NY and Philly. A good portion of fans in New York don't watch the tv show, don't follow the product and just want to cheer Bullet Club and do silly chants during other matches. Philadelphia does better. Guys like the Kingdom, Lethal, Dalton Castle get better reactions there.

Yeah. I agree​ with this as far as the fans go. I will take it a step further in another direction though... I don't know if I would surmise Delirious as a lazy booker per se, but in some cases a reactionary booker. Bullet Club kinda just blew up over here in the States and what started off as a novelty act for ROH was now hot shit. What was he supposed to do? So if you're #1 attraction is an act for another company, you are kind of at the mercy of another booker, right? The insertion of Adam Cole into Bullet Club was a Gedo thing not Delirious. Cole has said as much in interviews. It's an inferior position to be in for a booker of your own company. A perfect example of this is the ascension of Adam Page. It has little to do with Delirious who didn't know what the fuck to do with the guy forever.

Delirious has often been more inept than not, but I like his direction with Castle as champion. I think I am the only guy on here that has a slight interest in Shane Taylor and his mercenary role. I like the Silas Young/Kenny King TV title feud. So there are some things he has going for him. Now Josh Woods and King Mo? Meh.

[monster mafia]

my best in the world dream match card

roh world tittle: dalton castle vs cody
tag team ch: briscoes vs young bucks vs ssb
jay lethal vs j. gresham
roh tv tittle: silas young vs austin aries
marty scurll vs flip gordon
woh ch: sumie sakai vs deonna vs tenille vs kelly klein
punishment martinez vs adam page
six man tag team championship: the kingdom vs scu (?)

[famicommander]

I'd be down for a Lethal/Coleman odd couple tag team

[Zhuge1]

I'd be down for a Lethal/Coleman odd couple tag team

I'd be down for just seeing more of Coleman -- he's underutilized given his talent (and his mic work).

[Zhuge1]

Random thought -- I was surprised to see Joey Daddiego on ROH this week against Shane Taylor.

[AlexROH]

Cheeseburger is openning is own wrestling academy along with Sumie Sakai. I saw that he won't be part of the trainers in the new ROH Dojo, so this means that the old/current ROH Dojo will be closed?

[The Dragon Saga]

Yeah. Their moving the dojo to Baltimore because the lease on the current one is up. They seem to be setting up their own "Performance Center" of sorts. I think it's a good thing, the list of trainers is pretty good too.

With all due respect to Cheese, if I were an aspiring wrestler I wouldn't be chopping at the bit to be trained by him, or Sumie for that matter.

[Wilson]

Yeah. Their moving the dojo to Baltimore because the lease on the current one is up. They seem to be setting up their own "Performance Center" of sorts. I think it's a good thing, the list of trainers is pretty good too.

With all due respect to Cheese, if I were an aspiring wrestler I wouldn't be chopping at the bit to be trained by him, or Sumie for that matter.

I think most of us are inclined to agree with what you're getting at, but maybe it's not a bad idea to open up a school that could emphasize the mechanics of 'cartoon wrestling' or working with a spry, unorthodox body. Other than her general kindheartedness, I don't see Sumie being a great mentor either.

Cheeseburger and Sumie resourcing themselves outside the Dojo is pretty intriguing, especially for current champion Sumie. They were never the pillars of the company, but they fulfilled specific roles and this move might finally relegate both of them.

[Big Red Machine]

To blame the fans is asinine. Johnston has pit on ZERO effort with anybody else even those who are already made stars how can the fans be blamed for that?

The fans do deserve a measure of blame. I got to a lot of shows in NY and Philly. A good portion of fans in New York don't watch the tv show, don't follow the product and just want to cheer Bullet Club and do silly chants during other matches. Philadelphia does better. Guys like the Kingdom, Lethal, Dalton Castle get better reactions there.

Yeah. I agree​ with this as far as the fans go. I will take it a step further in another direction though... I don't know if I would surmise Delirious as a lazy booker per se, but in some cases a reactionary booker. Bullet Club kinda just blew up over here in the States and what started off as a novelty act for ROH was now hot shit. What was he supposed to do? So if you're #1 attraction is an act for another company, you are kind of at the mercy of another booker, right? The insertion of Adam Cole into Bullet Club was a Gedo thing not Delirious. Cole has said as much in interviews. It's an inferior position to be in for a booker of your own company. A perfect example of this is the ascension of Adam Page. It has little to do with Delirious who didn't know what the fuck to do with the guy forever.

The big mistake with Bullet Club wasn't putting Cole in the group. I wouldn't have done it, but if it was unavoidable then there was a better way to do it: to not turn Bullet Club heel. Turning heel so soon after his face turn hurt Adam Page, it made Cole feel stale, and it set up a situation where fans were now cheering the heels as if they were top babyfaces when they were ruining main events and trying to murder people for no good reason. What was wrong with the dynamic ROH had where Bullet Club were babyfaces?

[Big Red Machine]

I think most of us are inclined to agree with what you're getting at, but maybe it's not a bad idea to open up a school that could emphasize the mechanics of 'cartoon wrestling' or working with a spry, unorthodox body. Other than her general kindheartedness, I don't see Sumie being a great mentor either.

Isn't this what CHIKARA does, plus they use their students on more shows?

[kovs27]

The fans do deserve a measure of blame. I got to a lot of shows in NY and Philly. A good portion of fans in New York don't watch the tv show, don't follow the product and just want to cheer Bullet Club and do silly chants during other matches. Philadelphia does better. Guys like the Kingdom, Lethal, Dalton Castle get better reactions there.

Yeah. I agree​ with this as far as the fans go. I will take it a step further in another direction though... I don't know if I would surmise Delirious as a lazy booker per se, but in some cases a reactionary booker. Bullet Club kinda just blew up over here in the States and what started off as a novelty act for ROH was now hot shit. What was he supposed to do? So if you're #1 attraction is an act for another company, you are kind of at the mercy of another booker, right? The insertion of Adam Cole into Bullet Club was a Gedo thing not Delirious. Cole has said as much in interviews. It's an inferior position to be in for a booker of your own company. A perfect example of this is the ascension of Adam Page. It has little to do with Delirious who didn't know what the fuck to do with the guy forever.

The big mistake with Bullet Club wasn't putting Cole in the group. I wouldn't have done it, but if it was unavoidable then there was a better way to do it: to not turn Bullet Club heel. Turning heel so soon after his face turn hurt Adam Page, it made Cole feel stale, and it set up a situation where fans were now cheering the heels as if they were top babyfaces when they were ruining main events and trying to murder people for no good reason. What was wrong with the dynamic ROH had where Bullet Club were babyfaces?

The face turn in general sucked for Page. It wasn't time. I think the Whitmer/Corino feud having to go way too long because they couldn't get the payoff match each time they wanted to have the match ended up hurting what they wanted to do with Page. If I remember correctly I think it was reported that Gedo was the one who wanted Page in the Bullet Club.

The Bullet Club was always presented as heels, just the crowd never treated them that way. You can possibly blame the Young Bucks for them being heels never working since they did nothing that a heel would do. They acted 100% face no matter what the match or story was supposed to tell. Once Bullet Club was going to be a real ROH faction then they should have been cool faces who occasionally bend the rules to get a win. This way their characters can stay within the spirit of how they are in Japan.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

Yeah. I agree​ with this as far as the fans go. I will take it a step further in another direction though... I don't know if I would surmise Delirious as a lazy booker per se, but in some cases a reactionary booker. Bullet Club kinda just blew up over here in the States and what started off as a novelty act for ROH was now hot shit. What was he supposed to do? So if you're #1 attraction is an act for another company, you are kind of at the mercy of another booker, right? The insertion of Adam Cole into Bullet Club was a Gedo thing not Delirious. Cole has said as much in interviews. It's an inferior position to be in for a booker of your own company. A perfect example of this is the ascension of Adam Page. It has little to do with Delirious who didn't know what the fuck to do with the guy forever.

The big mistake with Bullet Club wasn't putting Cole in the group. I wouldn't have done it, but if it was unavoidable then there was a better way to do it: to not turn Bullet Club heel. Turning heel so soon after his face turn hurt Adam Page, it made Cole feel stale, and it set up a situation where fans were now cheering the heels as if they were top babyfaces when they were ruining main events and trying to murder people for no good reason. What was wrong with the dynamic ROH had where Bullet Club were babyfaces?

The face turn in general sucked for Page. It wasn't time. I think the Whitmer/Corino feud having to go way too long because they couldn't get the payoff match each time they wanted to have the match ended up hurting what they wanted to do with Page. If I remember correctly I think it was reported that Gedo was the one who wanted Page in the Bullet Club.

The Bullet Club was always presented as heels, just the crowd never treated them that way. You can possibly blame the Young Bucks for them being heels never working since they did nothing that a heel would do. They acted 100% face no matter what the match or story was supposed to tell. Once Bullet Club was going to be a real ROH faction then they should have been cool faces who occasionally bend the rules to get a win. This way their characters can stay within the spirit of how they are in Japan.

This 100%. And you are correct. Gedo wanted Page in Bullet Club. So that is 2 guys at the top of the card that Delirious didn't have any creative control coming into a storyline he didn't even create. I wonder if that fucked with his head.

[dhads7161]

So in other words Delerious is a cuck.

[Big Red Machine]

Yeah. I agree​ with this as far as the fans go. I will take it a step further in another direction though... I don't know if I would surmise Delirious as a lazy booker per se, but in some cases a reactionary booker. Bullet Club kinda just blew up over here in the States and what started off as a novelty act for ROH was now hot shit. What was he supposed to do? So if you're #1 attraction is an act for another company, you are kind of at the mercy of another booker, right? The insertion of Adam Cole into Bullet Club was a Gedo thing not Delirious. Cole has said as much in interviews. It's an inferior position to be in for a booker of your own company. A perfect example of this is the ascension of Adam Page. It has little to do with Delirious who didn't know what the fuck to do with the guy forever.

The big mistake with Bullet Club wasn't putting Cole in the group. I wouldn't have done it, but if it was unavoidable then there was a better way to do it: to not turn Bullet Club heel. Turning heel so soon after his face turn hurt Adam Page, it made Cole feel stale, and it set up a situation where fans were now cheering the heels as if they were top babyfaces when they were ruining main events and trying to murder people for no good reason. What was wrong with the dynamic ROH had where Bullet Club were babyfaces?

The face turn in general sucked for Page. It wasn't time. I think the Whitmer/Corino feud having to go way too long because they couldn't get the payoff match each time they wanted to have the match ended up hurting what they wanted to do with Page. If I remember correctly I think it was reported that Gedo was the one who wanted Page in the Bullet Club.

The Bullet Club was always presented as heels, just the crowd never treated them that way. You can possibly blame the Young Bucks for them being heels never working since they did nothing that a heel would do. They acted 100% face no matter what the match or story was supposed to tell. Once Bullet Club was going to be a real ROH faction then they should have been cool faces who occasionally bend the rules to get a win. This way their characters can stay within the spirit of how they are in Japan.

Bullet Club always felt like babyfaces to me before the Global Wars debacle. At the very least they were never really booked as heels in ROH, and I thought it was kind of cool how The Kingdom/Gallows & Anderson feud had Kingdom as babyfaces in NJPW and heels in ROH, so I figured Gallows & Anderson swapped, too.

I agree about Page's face turn being hurt by Whitmer/Corino going on too long. That poor kid. Between that feud, the quick turn and then turn back, and BJ getting a concussion that cut short what was supposed to be his big breakout babyface match, and then being so obviously placed in the role of "guy who takes the pinfalls in American Bullet Club," he basically lost two whole years of his career, and has only now gotten a chance in the spotlight via Cody's sidekick in this Omega/Ibushi/Cody thing. Thankfully he's making the most of it and finally getting his due.

[dhads7161]

I'm sure Page isnfine with being the sidekick as long as he's making the money he's making now. Remember, two years ago he was still a full time high school teacher! I don't think him being a fall guy is as much a problem though as that they turned the Hangman gimmick from a vicious killer type heel to a fucking dick joke.

Bullet Club definitely weren't babyfaces in 2016 ROH from the WOTW PPV until Being the Elite truly took a turn for the ridiculous last summer around the time Page got "abducted".

[dhads7161]

I think Bullet Club not being reacted to as heels had more to do with Styles actually than the Young Bucks. Styles in ROH in 2014-15 was on god level.

[dhads7161]

With WWE moving SmackDown to Fox, would that have any effect on ROH airing on the SBG owned Fox stations? In my market we have two SBG stations and one is a Fox station.