Growing concerns about NXT?

[supersonic]

Meltzer:

There is a lot of talk within wrestling about how NXT touring will affect ROH, particularly since there are the ROH budget issues this year, which is one of the reasons Alberto El Patron isn’t expected to be taking any more dates past the ones already booked, because his price is so high. The idea is both are appealing to fans who want high action matches with guys who aren’t known to the masses. NXT’s top stars include ROH favorites and they have more of a buzz about them right now. ROH still reaches far more people in its markets because of television, but the people who actually attend the shows may be coming from the same pool. The concern expressed is more if NXT runs shows in the same markets anywhere near the same dates, and that’s more the big markets because the odds are that won’t happen in smaller markets. I don’t think it’s a major thing because it would be rare both groups would run the same market in close proximity when NXT starts national touring. But it does feel like they are going to be competition for the hardcore fan base and to an extent already are because of who NXT is built around these days. While one may argue that the wrestlers that are the keys to NXT, like Kevin Owens, Finn Balor, Sami Zayn, Hideo Itami, Adrian Neville, Charlotte and Sasha Banks all should be on the main roster now and most by all rights should be in WWE by the time the NXT brand starts touring, and the rest of NXT talent for the most part is not at the level of the top ROH guys. But the reality is that a lot of ROH talent isn’t under contract, and even some that are, when they have those deals expire, the best in ROH of the young guys right now would probably be the next guys recruited into NXT. It’s almost inevitable the most marketable guys in ROH will be contacted about making NXT the next step, particularly when it comes to filling the void when the top stars of today’s NXT get called up for the main roster. For years, the type of guys that headlined ROH were usually not the kind of guys WWE was looking for, but that has changed greatly with the success of Punk and Bryan and how NXT crowds have increased so much using former ROH acts as the top guys.

[LJimmy]

The only way this can have an impact is if WWE hires more names from ROH, the indies and Japan. Right now I don't see WWE making any effort to hire more talent from those places. Eventually some of the current crop of names will have to be called up to the main roster. Then what will they feature on these shows? Baron Corbin? Some football players without prior experience versus some power lifters or college wrestlers who also are starting from scratch? That will not draw crowds. The people who care about NXT do so due to Indy or international names who can put on quality matches. I am not so sure WWE realizes this even after all this time.

[Burnside]

I think NXT is a huge threat to ROH for exactly the reasons Dave lists. WWE has finally created an alternative to itself - a boutique promotion that appeals directly to ROH's fan base. And they have the money to sign anybody they want. And, perhaps most devastatingly, NXT has better booking than ROH.

[TYFDK]

Eh I gotta go with LJimmy on this. Eventually, all the indy stars will be on the WWE roster, or released and back on the indies. Then that'll leave all the body builders and arm wrestling superstars and football players. And not everyone can be an Enzo Amore.

[Ladrao12]

I think, at the very least, it has to be on ROH officials minds that this could hurt them. Granted, I think WWE is going to slow down on picking up indie guys, and that NXT, a year from now, won't look nearly as good as it does now (if the system works). Guys like Zayn, Owens, Balor, Itami, Neville, they should be headed to the main roster within the next 6-9 months. Hell, Zayn and Neville should have been there already.

I'm also worried about ROH because SBG, though saving them completely, is starting to hinder the product a bit. Funding is huge, and ROH not getting enough to really make a big leap is discouraging.

[WHG]

Time will tell, but I think the bigger question is going to be how much money the WWE will sink into NXT and for how long. I'm skeptical that they're going to really start and sustain a touring schedule. The perception of NXT as any kind of business success is greatly outpacing reality right now.

Wrestling at the scale that ROH does it is a very thin profit margin business (if it's profitable at all). A full time touring schedule will be expensive for WWE. Despite their sellouts in Cleveland & Columbus...the longer they tour the less demand there will be. Florida is a good example of that, where they saw their largest crowd ever this past week of 530 people. Developmental is already a huge expense. If they can tour profitably they'll do it, if not, they'll stop quickly.

People also seem to think they're going to start bringing people into NXT regardless of their main roster prospects just to bolster NXT as a brand. I don't buy that at all. The Rhyno thing is feeding that thinking, but short of very brief stints for specific purposes, i don't see them doing that. The core purpose of NXT will always be to feed the main roster.

It also makes very little sense for the WWE to compete with ROH in a way that would hurt their business. Driving Verne Gagne out of business is the dumbest thing Vince ever did. The AWA trained and developed most of their major stars in the 80's & even into the early 90's and was basically a free developmental territory with very little real threat. ROH is the closest thing the WWE has to that right now...only they're literally 0 threat.

[Wilson]

NXT is touring now? I was out of the loop on that one.

A touring NXT promotion is certainly a viable threat to the existence of the current ROH, as they are both safely booked, high-workrate driven alternatives for Western markets. As Burnside mentioned above, NXT has taken the road of long programs leading to strong payoffs, whereas ROH has been only been doing the long program part.

I think a lot of ROH's future relies on the booking getting into thinking shape. It seems like plenty of creative opportunities have been squandered by the milquetoast approach to angling. Remember the myriad directions The Decade seemed to propose a year ago? What about when Tomasso Ciampa went rogue and went nose to nose with Nigel? Should #TheNewStreak not have led not to an entirely new flavor to the cards, to enhance the "troupe" feeling that wrestling should bring? Why aren't The Briscoes involved in a visceral, emotional feud? On that remark, when was the last time reDRagon were in a program that was not scheduled as a competitive rivalry?

There's no excuse for their brain-dead booking--except that there is and it does not directly involve ROH creative. If SBG continues to exercise their right to produce an inconsequential, meandering product then they will suffer immensely.

[Burnside]

Wrestling at the scale that ROH does it is a very thin profit margin business (if it's profitable at all). A full time touring schedule will be expensive for WWE. Despite their sellouts in Cleveland & Columbus...the longer they tour the less demand there will be. Florida is a good example of that, where they saw their largest crowd ever this past week of 530 people. Developmental is already a huge expense. If they can tour profitably they'll do it, if not, they'll stop quickly.

People also seem to think they're going to start bringing people into NXT regardless of their main roster prospects just to bolster NXT as a brand. I don't buy that at all. The Rhyno thing is feeding that thinking, but short of very brief stints for specific purposes, i don't see them doing that. The core purpose of NXT will always be to feed the main roster.

The two bolded points are contradictory, and that's what makes NXT so dangerous to ROH. NXT isn't profitable now, probably never will be, and it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be self-sustaining. It's there as part of a bigger picture - to develop talent and provide original programming for the network. But WWE is behind NXT financially with a level of commitment that far surpasses SBG's investment in ROH.

For those saying, "WWE will get bored of these indy guys and pretty soon they'll be back to bodybuilders," I'm not so sure about that. They made an AWFUL lot of money with Punk and Bryan and I think that has caused them to reevaluate to a degree. NXT is HHH's baby, and right now he clearly seems to recognize that the most valuable talent there is Zayn, Steen, and Balor, which is a far cry from traditional WWE thinking. And I do think that when the Zayns, Steens, and Balors move up, WWE will be looking at the Adam Coles, Kyle O'Reillys, and even Jay Briscoes to fill those spots.

I totally agree that ROH could ameliorate a lot of the concern if the booking was better. Right now, NXT does not have better talent overall than ROH. Obviously their production kicks ROH's ass and always will and that can't be helped. But the fact that NXT has better booking than ROH is a big problem that ought to be addressed.

[WHG]

To the contradiction above, I should have said "If they can tour without increasing their net cost..." as opposed to profitably. You're right that they aren't looking for NXT to be profitable...but if there's any pressure on their income this year that requires cutting costs, adding a live touring schedule for NXT is going to be high on the list of things that will likely be axed.

Agreed that the booking in NXT is stronger right now and that is the main issue as to whether a touring NXT will be a threat or not.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

I agree with Burnside and Wilson. As far as adding else of substance I'll say this, "The enemy is within."

[LJimmy]

They may have signed Balor, Owens and Itami last year, but I am still not convinced this represents change in mindsets and that they understand why fans praise NXT. I'm not convinced when I still hear stories that they think they have enough smaller guys or enough indy names. They still turn down notable Indy names. So far they have not prepared for life after the main crew carrying the brand gets the call up. If they leave them in NXT for too long they will become more and more unhappy. It won't be good for people who actually need long term training to be around unhappy talents. ROH Haas northing to worry about as long as they are not signing any new talent from the indies.

[Wilson]

NXT isn't profitable now, probably never will be, and it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be self-sustaining. It's there as part of a bigger picture - to develop talent and provide original programming for the network. But WWE is behind NXT financially with a level of commitment that far surpasses SBG's investment in ROH.

I also view it as HHH’s pet project and a totally insular activity at the moment, at least in correspondence to outside markets. NXT touring seems to be about the boys, girls, and the production crew (assuming that their unique to the RAW, secondary, and tertiary shows) on the road. Essentially, NXT does not intimate to me that it is trying to compete with the livelihood of ROH.

However, that is probably not the viewpoint of SBG. I’m sure any rerouting of their niche will enfeeble and probably stultify whatever propulsion of interest they had in revamping a touring wrestling alternative.

I’m presuming a lot about SBG and have perhaps taken too much merit from the on-scene reporters, but this situation is drawing a more precarious picture for ROH.

[Ladrao12]

They may have signed Balor, Owens and Itami last year, but I am still not convinced this represents change in mindsets and that they understand why fans praise NXT. I'm not convinced when I still hear stories that they think they have enough smaller guys or enough indy names. They still turn down notable Indy names. So far they have not prepared for life after the main crew carrying the brand gets the call up. If they leave them in NXT for too long they will become more and more unhappy. It won't be good for people who actually need long term training to be around unhappy talents. ROH Haas northing to worry about as long as they are not signing any new talent from the indies.

I mostly agree with this. They've already had guys like Ricochet, Cole and Rich Swann do tryouts, and offer none of them contracts. It may be inevitable that Ricochet & Cole end up there at some point, but why not grab them and start to train them "your way" now?

[triplexpac]

I mostly agree with this. They've already had guys like Ricochet, Cole and Rich Swann do tryouts, and offer none of them contracts. It may be inevitable that Ricochet & Cole end up there at some point, but why not grab them and start to train them "your way" now?

Well guys like Ricochet and Cole are really young. NXT is quite full right now, they don't need to sign every indie talent just yet. I could see HHH thinking that guys under 30 would be better off on the indies while NXT works on Zayn, Owens, etc. In a year when the current top guys from NXT are on the main roster, then you bring in guys like Cole to fill their spot.

I think going forward it will always be a churn like this, where NXT signs the top talent on the indies.

[Mr. Orange]

I feel like this has always been a problem for ROH though. Anyone who makes it big here is destined to go onto WWE or TNA or wherever. New guys will come up and the cycle will continue it's how it is.

[Burnside]

I feel like this has always been a problem for ROH though. Anyone who makes it big here is destined to go onto WWE or TNA or wherever. New guys will come up and the cycle will continue it's how it is.

That's always been a problem, yes.

But NXT doing ROH better than ROH does ROH is a new problem.

[DXvsNWO1994]

As far as NXT Touring goes, I think that as long as they're not running around the same area, relatively close to each other, then ROH would be fine, in my opinion. I know NXT's first touring shows are in Ohio, on March 5th & 6th. If ROH was also running Ohio that weekend, or were running Ohio a week or two weeks before or after, then it would definitely hurt ROH.

[Burnside]

I think the problem is about more than touring. It's about which product is doing a better job capturing the imagination, money, and attention of the hardcore wrestling fan. Previously, WWE didn't offer a product that catered heavily to those fans. Now they do. Can ROH compete for that small but high-spending and heavily invested niche demo? Yes. But they'd better start telling some better stories. Not convinced Delirious is up to it.

[DXvsNWO1994]

I think the problem is about more than touring. It's about which product is doing a better job capturing the imagination, money, and attention of the hardcore wrestling fan. Previously, WWE didn't offer a product that catered heavily to those fans. Now they do. Can ROH compete for that small but high-spending and heavily invested niche demo? Yes. But they'd better start telling some better stories. Not convinced Delirious is up to it.

Just out of curiosity, if you were in charge of ROH, and you could sack Delirious as Head Booker, who would you put in his place?

[Burnside]

I think the problem is about more than touring. It's about which product is doing a better job capturing the imagination, money, and attention of the hardcore wrestling fan. Previously, WWE didn't offer a product that catered heavily to those fans. Now they do. Can ROH compete for that small but high-spending and heavily invested niche demo? Yes. But they'd better start telling some better stories. Not convinced Delirious is up to it.

Just out of curiosity, if you were in charge of ROH, and you could sack Delirious as Head Booker, who would you put in his place?

Truth Martini, who has been booking all of the Jay Lethal/TV title stuff for over a year, which have been the most compelling and coherent angles in the company. Currently Martini is Delirious's assistant. The very first thing I'd do if I was in charge would be to reverse their positions.

Failing that, is Lagana still with TNA? Because he was ROH's head booker for the first 6 months of 2011 which was also a lot better than anything we've had since.