Supercard Of Honor 2022 - April 1st - Discussion

[NewROHFan2020]

So you can spend 21 hours a week in a gym and you’re not a pro wrestler, but you just were telling us how a female wrestler should be paid more to do the same? And that’s without them having a full-time job too?

Those are facts that women only promotions have failed time and time again. That’s why they don’t/can’t tour. But yeah, let’s pay Kelly Klein the same as Jay Lethal…

Very clear, you aren't very smart, so I'll try my best to explain clearly the point. I am telling you a female wrestler should be paid a fair number. I am not saying she should be paid equal to or higher than a man. What I am saying is that a livable wage should be a guaranteed part of society especially coming from a billion dollar corporation that provides no health insurance. What I make for a living in a completely different industry in one check is more than she would have made in a year. That alone is cause for grave concern.

Your grand dillusion here is embarrassing. Stop while the hole is as deep as it is.

If you work 30 days a year, there is no such thing as a “fair number”. Plenty of female entertainers make more than their male counterparts, because they are worth it. Pro wrestling is entertainment. Again, you will stick up for anything ex-ROH/AEW and of course, not your money.

Just looked through your podcast topics and surprise, surprise; not 1 show dedicated to womens wrestling or 1 interview with a female. It’s so popular though!!!

[Shanahan]

Never a Klein fan but 15k is pretty fucking low. I don’t think she should get 75k but somewhere in the middle.

[NewROHFan2020]

Never a Klein fan but 15k is pretty fucking low. I don’t think she should get 75k but somewhere in the middle.

Maybe? 15k for 30 days is pretty good. Should she be paid more? Debatable. Like I have said before, if she’s “so good” why isn’t she working for a promotion?

[DougN]

I still think you're missing the fact that it was a CONTRACT for $15,000. They locked her down exclusively, with date declining rights, for $15,000. Yeah, you can argue that she didn't have to take it, but the fact that a company like that is trying to lock people down for 15k is ridiculous and again goes back to the TNA argument from the mid-2000s.

[DougN]

And also if you're argument is "if she's so good, why isn't she working for a promotion?"

Well, if she's so expendable, then why did they make her champion for half a year?

[NewROHFan2020]

I still think you're missing the fact that it was a CONTRACT for $15,000. They locked her down exclusively, with date declining rights, for $15,000. Yeah, you can argue that she didn't have to take it, but the fact that a company like that is trying to lock people down for 15k is ridiculous and again goes back to the TNA argument from the mid-2000s.

She signed. That’s what she thought she was worth. Just like any job you have ever done. If you were upset at the pay, why would you want to work there? $15k for 30 dates is pretty good. There’s 52 weeks in a year.

[NewROHFan2020]

And also if you're argument is "if she's so good, why isn't she working for a promotion?"

Well, if she's so expendable, then why did they make her champion for half a year?

Companies take chances on people sometimes. Alex Wright and Prince Iaukea were WCW TV champions 25 years ago. Not everyone turns into Seth Rollins and Kevin Owens.

[DougN]

I still think you're missing the fact that it was a CONTRACT for $15,000. They locked her down exclusively, with date declining rights, for $15,000. Yeah, you can argue that she didn't have to take it, but the fact that a company like that is trying to lock people down for 15k is ridiculous and again goes back to the TNA argument from the mid-2000s.

She signed. That’s what she thought she was worth. Just like any job you have ever done. If you were upset at the pay, why would you want to work there? $15k for 30 dates is pretty good. There’s 52 weeks in a year.

I specifically said you could argue that point, but it's still crap of a company to try and lock somebody down exclusively for that low. It was crap in the 2000s for TNA and it's crap now.

Alex Wright and Prince Iaukea held the TV belt for a combined 81 days. Kelly held it for 255 days in 2019. That's not taking a chance on somebody. That's relying and banking on somebody. And she was also women's champion WHEN she was offered that contract.

[AnHonorableMention]

So you can spend 21 hours a week in a gym and you’re not a pro wrestler, but you just were telling us how a female wrestler should be paid more to do the same? And that’s without them having a full-time job too?

Those are facts that women only promotions have failed time and time again. That’s why they don’t/can’t tour. But yeah, let’s pay Kelly Klein the same as Jay Lethal…

Very clear, you aren't very smart, so I'll try my best to explain clearly the point. I am telling you a female wrestler should be paid a fair number. I am not saying she should be paid equal to or higher than a man. What I am saying is that a livable wage should be a guaranteed part of society especially coming from a billion dollar corporation that provides no health insurance. What I make for a living in a completely different industry in one check is more than she would have made in a year. That alone is cause for grave concern.

Your grand dillusion here is embarrassing. Stop while the hole is as deep as it is.

If you work 30 days a year, there is no such thing as a “fair number”. Plenty of female entertainers make more than their male counterparts, because they are worth it. Pro wrestling is entertainment. Again, you will stick up for anything ex-ROH/AEW and of course, not your money.

Just looked through your podcast topics and surprise, surprise; not 1 show dedicated to womens wrestling or 1 interview with a female. It’s so popular though!!!

A fair number is a number agreed upon by both parties. It's not a hard and fast number.

I am so bemused that you know my opinions on wrestling. I've been fairly outspoken about not being a fan of women's wrestling unless there's a generational talent involved. I stick up for common sense and gender equality.

You know why we don't have interviews with female talent from the old days or present day? Your friends at SBG banned us from interviewing anyone under contract, WWE has that ban in place as well because they make no profit. Others like a Daizee Haze for example have zero interest because of what her ex did to her. Lacey same deal. The effort has been there.

[EvanKnight]

I really hate commenting on contracts without actually knowing the specifics, but independent pro wrestling is an independent contractor world. Moving up from "Hey I'll give you $500 for next next Saturday" to "I'll agree to give you $500 each night for 2 Saturdays a month for the next year if you give us first dibs on dates" is an improvement. Same as a music band with a standing gig, it may not provide your only income, but it can be better for all involved. Arguing that the only contracts given out should be full-time "livable wage" is only going to hurt the performers in the long run. Now, if ROH mandated exclusivity and didn't allow a performer to work other companies for that amount, that would be a bad agreement for the performer. "Fair" is what an informed buyer and an informed seller agree to.

[NewROHFan2020]

I really hate commenting on contracts without actually knowing the specifics, but independent pro wrestling is an independent contractor world. Moving up from "Hey I'll give you $500 for next next Saturday" to "I'll agree to give you $500 each night for 2 Saturdays a month for the next year if you give us first dibs on dates" is an improvement. Same as a music band with a standing gig, it may not provide your only income, but it can be better for all involved. Arguing that the only contracts given out should be full-time "livable wage" is only going to hurt the performers in the long run. Now, if ROH mandated exclusivity and didn't allow a performer to work other companies for that amount, that would be a bad agreement for the performer. "Fair" is what an informed buyer and an informed seller agree to.

I agree. We don’t know specifics, but for someone to claim diet and gym time as part of their working time is ridiculous.

[NewROHFan2020]

Very clear, you aren't very smart, so I'll try my best to explain clearly the point. I am telling you a female wrestler should be paid a fair number. I am not saying she should be paid equal to or higher than a man. What I am saying is that a livable wage should be a guaranteed part of society especially coming from a billion dollar corporation that provides no health insurance. What I make for a living in a completely different industry in one check is more than she would have made in a year. That alone is cause for grave concern.

Your grand dillusion here is embarrassing. Stop while the hole is as deep as it is.

If you work 30 days a year, there is no such thing as a “fair number”. Plenty of female entertainers make more than their male counterparts, because they are worth it. Pro wrestling is entertainment. Again, you will stick up for anything ex-ROH/AEW and of course, not your money.

Just looked through your podcast topics and surprise, surprise; not 1 show dedicated to womens wrestling or 1 interview with a female. It’s so popular though!!!

A fair number is a number agreed upon by both parties. It's not a hard and fast number.

I am so bemused that you know my opinions on wrestling. I've been fairly outspoken about not being a fan of women's wrestling unless there's a generational talent involved. I stick up for common sense and gender equality.

You know why we don't have interviews with female talent from the old days or present day? Your friends at SBG banned us from interviewing anyone under contract, WWE has that ban in place as well because they make no profit. Others like a Daizee Haze for example have zero interest because of what her ex did to her. Lacey same deal. The effort has been there.

My friends? Could care less about SBG. The effort is there, but still nothing. SJW for womens wrestling contracts but doesn’t care for it.

[Montana]

Not that i really want to argue about this... but the word "Exclusive" is thrown out there a lot. From my understanding, (at least with the men's contracts) you could work indies, as long as it's not with a company with a TV deal/TV appearance. There may be other specifics unless something has changed. Assuming Men's/Women's is the same. We've seen a lot of ROH talent in PWG, New Japan, AAA, etc. Now, where i think women may have it more challenging; they didn't have as many alternative places to work in 2019. But either way; she could have a outside-job. She can work other companies. It's not like ROH completely dominates her life working 30 dates a year.

Personally, i think it's pretty similar to most people working arrangements. You take the job that pays the most. It's clear before "she" signed with ROH; no other company was willing to offer her a contract, or pay near what ROH was willing to pay at the time. ROH was clearly the best option for her, and her career goals. She won the ROH women's title. It's mutually beneficial, as said wrestler/star is now on TV 30 times a year. Thus growing her market value; so when her contract is up, she could have had a bidding war between WWE/AEW/ROH. But... now; that's not the case, because no one wants to do business with someone like that. Right or wrong; that's not how you handle business.

Look at ROK-C; ROH provides a platform. The whole thing was handled poorly... both sides... but demanding more money ; and saying how awful the company is; just doesn't jive to me. Like , if you weren't paid enough at your job, eventually you look for another one. Especially if you think of how awful the company is.

[DougN]

Only thing I'll chime in on the "exclusive" piece is -- do you remember when ROH pulled guys from PWG? It's not as simple as "don't work for guys with TV/PPV."

[Montana]

Only thing I'll chime in on the "exclusive" piece is -- do you remember when ROH pulled guys from PWG? It's not as simple as "don't work for guys with TV/PPV."

No… not really. Was it a conflicting date? Seems like ROH guys are always in PWG.

[AnHonorableMention]

If you work 30 days a year, there is no such thing as a “fair number”. Plenty of female entertainers make more than their male counterparts, because they are worth it. Pro wrestling is entertainment. Again, you will stick up for anything ex-ROH/AEW and of course, not your money.

Just looked through your podcast topics and surprise, surprise; not 1 show dedicated to womens wrestling or 1 interview with a female. It’s so popular though!!!

A fair number is a number agreed upon by both parties. It's not a hard and fast number.

I am so bemused that you know my opinions on wrestling. I've been fairly outspoken about not being a fan of women's wrestling unless there's a generational talent involved. I stick up for common sense and gender equality.

You know why we don't have interviews with female talent from the old days or present day? Your friends at SBG banned us from interviewing anyone under contract, WWE has that ban in place as well because they make no profit. Others like a Daizee Haze for example have zero interest because of what her ex did to her. Lacey same deal. The effort has been there.

My friends? Could care less about SBG. The effort is there, but still nothing. SJW for womens wrestling contracts but doesn’t care for it.

You are stumping for SBG being the "golden era" in spite of zero knowledge as to what the term means. If being a "social justice warrior" for people to make livable wages no matter of gender or job, makes me bad then I guess I am bad. There's a lot of wrestling, I'm not interested in. That doesn't mean I don't believe in paying people enough money to pay their bills.

[AnHonorableMention]

Only thing I'll chime in on the "exclusive" piece is -- do you remember when ROH pulled guys from PWG? It's not as simple as "don't work for guys with TV/PPV."

No… not really. Was it a conflicting date? Seems like ROH guys are always in PWG.

It was not a conflicting date. It was we own them, they signed contracts.

[AnHonorableMention]

I really hate commenting on contracts without actually knowing the specifics, but independent pro wrestling is an independent contractor world. Moving up from "Hey I'll give you $500 for next next Saturday" to "I'll agree to give you $500 each night for 2 Saturdays a month for the next year if you give us first dibs on dates" is an improvement. Same as a music band with a standing gig, it may not provide your only income, but it can be better for all involved. Arguing that the only contracts given out should be full-time "livable wage" is only going to hurt the performers in the long run. Now, if ROH mandated exclusivity and didn't allow a performer to work other companies for that amount, that would be a bad agreement for the performer. "Fair" is what an informed buyer and an informed seller agree to.

Her contract and subsequent emails between her and Greg the office boy were part of the lawsuit discovery phase. Bix posted it, I read it. ROH uses the exact same contract format as WCW did. Those also are floating out there on the internet, in fact there's one person who went from being talent to office in the SBG era who showed me his ROH contract so my father, a lawyer could review. Needless to say it was as if SBG took the words World Championship Wrestling out and retyped it with the words Ring of Honor Wrestling LLC.

[DougN]

Only thing I'll chime in on the "exclusive" piece is -- do you remember when ROH pulled guys from PWG? It's not as simple as "don't work for guys with TV/PPV."

No… not really. Was it a conflicting date? Seems like ROH guys are always in PWG.

https://www.wrestlingnewssource.com/new ... om-Indies/

2014

[Montana]

Only thing I'll chime in on the "exclusive" piece is -- do you remember when ROH pulled guys from PWG? It's not as simple as "don't work for guys with TV/PPV."

No… not really. Was it a conflicting date? Seems like ROH guys are always in PWG.

https://www.wrestlingnewssource.com/new ... om-Indies/

2014

Hmm, I don't think this lasted long; because Roderick Strong who won the belt; still wrestled ROH and PWG. The first PWG shows of 2015 include Strong, Young Bucks, ACH, Tommaso Ciampa, Bobby Fish, and maybe a few others. Or maybe it was just Cole/Reily.