Who/What has done the most damage to ROH?

[Montana]

Who’s done the most damage to Ring of Honor. It’s no secret that ROH has been repairing it’s reputation, rebuilding it’s brand and identify…. Mainly in 2019 What went wrong? Who’s done the most damage to the ROH brand???

***I do think ROH has done quite a bit in 2020 to turn the ship- refocus and rebuild itself back up. Time will tell, if it’s successful. ***

Here’s what I’ve come up with:

SBG - While giving ROH a lifeline; they’ve failed to really grow the brand beyond the local/regional markets; despite a rich history; and some very hot/huge momentum in 2015-2018. Kind of a glass half full/half empty.

Joe Koff & Greg Gilleland - ROH Boss and their financial officer. Were they on “cruise control” a bit too much during their peak times; riding high on their success. Did they react quick enough? I think they recognized concern in early 2019; however failed to steer the ship right; in 2019.

Delirious - Did his booking hurt the product so much to turn fans away?? Personally I haven’t hated his booking, but it’s not perfect; and beyond stale in 2018-2019.

Bully Ray - From the fan incident in 2019; to the idea of Enzo/Cass at G1 Supercard; Potentially hiring/using his relationship friends w/ Velvet Sky & Angelina Love… So his creative control of his Bully Ray character not fitting the ROH mold; and very repetitive storylines. Then power bombing Maria Manic through a table, giving her a concussion; which she has not been seen since. At least he did put a few baby faces over, but sorely didn't connect well with ROH fans at all.

Joey Mercury - From his twitter rants; calling out ROH management. Maybe he was right, maybe not; but not the best way to handle business. Blast ROH over it’s concussion safety protocols for Kelly Klein; then it’s revealed that’s even been having an affair with her.

WWE/NXT - WWE has already had their eye on ROH talent starting in 2002; but year after year more and more talent get recognized and signed. Its good and bad. ROH gets known as a premier up and coming talent pool; but year after year they need to continue to build up new stars. Has WWE talent raids gone too far? Think back around 2016 when they were contacted ROH talent under contract to work for them; which I believe settled in a lawsuit which delayed the undisputed era from debuting.

The Elite / AEW - This is another glass half full – half empty. I think truly think their intentions were good. Cody put over multiple ROH talent, and didn’t use his ego/power to change things. The Young Bucks; put their bodies on the line night after night. They were truly changing the wrestling world; and a great opportunity presented itself and they took it. Taking a great opportunity, they took a lot of friends and colleagues with them. ROH essentially helped their competition in a big way; with producing “All In” and giving them a platform for many years.

G1 Supercard - In a landmark event; this could have been a game changer for ROH and came up short. Certainly an event I think ROH can still be proud of in my opinion; but not the home run it needed. In fact; this was most the day the most ROH fans were ever “turned off” of the product. Overconfident is probably the best way to put it. I think people will argue the finish to Lethal vs. Taven vs. Marty forever. Certainly a notorious ROH show for the history books.

The Fans - Good or bad; ROH fans have an elitist attitude. They are vocal if they like something, and even more vocal if they don't like it. They can be some of the hardest fans to please.

Other - Maybe Marty Scurll.. although I think you could argue he’s helped the company more than hurt. Maybe you really hate Matt Taven. Maybe NJPW… I imagine someone could come up with something that ROH jobbed out to NJPW.


Personally I think you can make a case for all these. Hard to pick just one. Kind of like the chicken and the egg with some of these. I’m leaning the Elite/AEW… which I think the damage was more incidental.. and not intentional… but they really had all the momentum in 2019; and ROH despite good matches/shows, failed to bounce back. ROH didn’t do themselves any favors in 2019…. Things went back bad to worse very quickly. I would think the 2018 ROH fans; would want to see wrestlers like Bandido/Jeff Cobb/ Mark Haskins/ Brody King, but sadly ROH poorly marketed in 2019; and AEW grabbed the attention of the masses. Not only taking the attention away, now they are direction competition. So indirectly doing damage. I think there is certainly a wrestling world where ROH and AEW can coexist, and maybe this is for the best in the long run.

What do you guys think? I’m guessing this should lead to an interesting discussion.

[BurningHammer]

It’s pretty everything in that list all together at varying degrees over the years, to me we are at a point now with ROH which it should have been years ago.

I feel the main problem was somewhere along the line it decided as a company to try and be something it wasn’t, no more evident at G1 Supercard, they wanted to transition to a wider audience based style which was horrible contrast to New Japan in general. It also felt for a long time fans voices didn’t matter that they knew best. generally as a fan base I feel we know our shit, disagreements aside I think most of us here have a very good concept of wrestling and what the company should be delivering. Thankfully this reset has allowed a much better idea of the company to come together and if everything stays on course, stuff keeps being remembered coming together to create great high points ROH will be in a very good place by the end of it.

I’m more annoyed that this version of ROH has been possible for a long time yet it took a pandemic to achieve it.

[Montana]

It’s pretty everything in that list all together at varying degrees over the years, to me we are at a point now with ROH which it should have been years ago.

I feel the main problem was somewhere along the line it decided as a company to try and be something it wasn’t, no more evident at G1 Supercard, they wanted to transition to a wider audience based style which was horrible contrast to New Japan in general. It also felt for a long time fans voices didn’t matter that they knew best. generally as a fan base I feel we know our shit, disagreements aside I think most of us here have a very good concept of wrestling and what the company should be delivering. Thankfully this reset has allowed a much better idea of the company to come together and if everything stays on course, stuff keeps being remembered coming together to create great high points ROH will be in a very good place by the end of it.

I’m more annoyed that this version of ROH has been possible for a long time yet it took a pandemic to achieve it.

When would have been the time to pull the trigger on a mass overhaul though? Clearly ROH from 2018 to 2019 were vastly different in a sense. I think heading into 2019 you stay the course, and see what you have without the Elite. Maybe after G1 didn't get a resounding positive praise you switch things up. i think anytime before 2019; could have halted momentum. I could be wrong, but i believe 2016-2018 were their most successful years. So why change then? Seemingly, it was like Murphy Law for ROH in 2019. where anything that can go wrong, went wrong. Lost tons of talent, Lifeblood was a failure, G1 Supercard, Bully Ray, Joey Mercury, low ticket sales, women's division, and a general lack of marketing/promoting the product. (Not all of 2019 was bad though, Villains Enterprises was great, Bandido, Jeff Cobb, Briscoes vs GOD, Manhattan Mayhem was a really good show, etc, etc)


The more i think about it; while it was unintentional; i still feel AEW has done the most damage in a indirect way. (Maybe in a crazy way; they've done more to help ROH as well) But if AEW never formed; and the Elite go to WWE. I still think you have ROH as your #2 company; and i don't think the fans revolt against ROH. I don't see Impact; beating out ROH if AEW wasn't formed. My guess is they would close the gap; but still think ROH would be more loved; than hated. The new crop of wrestlers (Bandido/Cobb/Brody King/Haskins/Rush) would get more attention.

[BurningHammer]

It’s pretty everything in that list all together at varying degrees over the years, to me we are at a point now with ROH which it should have been years ago.

I feel the main problem was somewhere along the line it decided as a company to try and be something it wasn’t, no more evident at G1 Supercard, they wanted to transition to a wider audience based style which was horrible contrast to New Japan in general. It also felt for a long time fans voices didn’t matter that they knew best. generally as a fan base I feel we know our shit, disagreements aside I think most of us here have a very good concept of wrestling and what the company should be delivering. Thankfully this reset has allowed a much better idea of the company to come together and if everything stays on course, stuff keeps being remembered coming together to create great high points ROH will be in a very good place by the end of it.

I’m more annoyed that this version of ROH has been possible for a long time yet it took a pandemic to achieve it.

When would have been the time to pull the trigger on a mass overhaul though? Clearly ROH from 2018 to 2019 were vastly different in a sense. I think heading into 2019 you stay the course, and see what you have without the Elite. Maybe after G1 didn't get a resounding positive praise you switch things up. i think anytime before 2019; could have halted momentum. I could be wrong, but i believe 2016-2018 were their most successful years. So why change then? Seemingly, it was like Murphy Law for ROH in 2019. where anything that can go wrong, went wrong. Lost tons of talent, Lifeblood was a failure, G1 Supercard, Bully Ray, Joey Mercury, low ticket sales, women's division, and a general lack of marketing/promoting the product. (Not all of 2019 was bad though, Villains Enterprises was great, Bandido, Jeff Cobb, Briscoes vs GOD, Manhattan Mayhem was a really good show, etc, etc)


The more i think about it; while it was unintentional; i still feel AEW has done the most damage in a indirect way. (Maybe in a crazy way; they've done more to help ROH as well) But if AEW never formed; and the Elite go to WWE. I still think you have ROH as your #2 company; and i don't think the fans revolt against ROH. I don't see Impact; beating out ROH if AEW wasn't formed. My guess is they would close the gap; but still think ROH would be more loved; than hated. The new crop of wrestlers (Bandido/Cobb/Brody King/Haskins/Rush) would get more attention.

The thing is ROH was successful without really creating anything succinct or month to month that generally flowed really well. ROH kept on trying to patch over the cracks instead of going to a new format like the one we see now. If ROH had started 2019 in this new way, it would have been incredible and such a shot after everyone had left. Unfortunately they kept going with what they knew but it still had the failings it had before but without the Bucks etc to hide the many flaws. This was all compounded by multiple issues from talent leaving, to awful shows, fans falling a sleep in the front row, to dirty laundry being aired. Even now having a hugely high profile talent involved in an under age sex scandal. ROH needs a good six months of what we are seeing now without too much outside noise, showing they are understanding and showing thought and detail which will get people really invested.

Knowing the matches coming up it feels like such a fresh approach, it’s why I just didn’t enjoy last week as it felt a bit too much like ROH of old. If ROH can limit that approach it will mean more and in the end feel different and select to that group.

[famicommander]

The MSG show was the point of no return for a lot of the issues. They had existed for years prior, but everything boiled over on that show. On the day with the most eyes in the company's history focused on ROH, they chose to show the exact opposite of the identity they'd spent almost two decades cultivating.

The rap performance.
The Bully Ray and Allure stuff.
Enzo and Cass.
The 15 second squash match.

Without those four issues I think Taven's title win would have been a lot better received, and in hindsight they definitely dodged a bullet not putting the strap on Marty. But I think because of the above issues and Marty's extreme popularity at that time, the fanbase at large took the Taven coronation as the cherry on the middle finger sundae that the rest of the show had been to that point.

Ring of Honor was always supposed to be the "pro wrestling" alternative to the "sports entertainment" product presented by WWE and TNA historically and now AEW as well. But that night was the most "sports entertainment" that ROH ever was.

[Shanahan]

Adam Pearce putting belt on Jerry Lynn. All went down hill after that.

[EvanKnight]

The booking/general direction of the company is the main cause. It is the reason that G1 was as underwhelming as it was. The fact that ROH has gone so long without creating stars, telling engaging stories, or utilizing current talent to their potential is the primary cause of the trouble. If that was better and those three things done, it would have overridden almost everything else on that list.

[Wavelet Transform]

For me, it's probably a combination of the AEW crew and Delirious's booking. Post-Gabe, but prior to the Bucks becoming the biggest thing in indy wrestling, ROH still created new stars and turned over the top of the card regularly. From 2010-2012, ROH made Davey Richards, Kevin Steen, Adam Cole, Kyle O'Reilly, Elgin, Bobby Fish, etc.... into top stars. When the Bucks got big and the NJPW relationship got strong that stopped, or at least stagnated. The number of talents that languished in the midcard with no direction before heading elsewhere in 2014-2018 is embarrassing. ROH did nothing w/ Keith Lee, Cedric Alexander, Ciampa, Donovan Dijak, Lio Rush, etc.... For a long time, the only path to a big push was being involved with BTE. It's not clear whether that's the Bucks or Delirious, but it was definitely a problem, both for the product and in creating the perception that ROH was no longer the place to go to make your name through hard work and great matches.

Once the AEW crew left, it created a massive talent vacuum and we got the collapse that was 2019. I'm not saying the Bucks held people down, but ROH seems to have felt (rightly) that the Bucks/AEW crew were the hottest thing going and (wrongly) that they'd stick around for the long-term. The Bucks also dramatically changed why people attend wrestling shows. When I first got into ROH, it was because I wanted to see who won the matches and what would happen with the storylines. When the Bullet Club was at its peak, it seemed like fans attended because they wanted to be around this supremely cool group of people, shout their catchphrases, and do their hand signs. I think either is a perfectly valid reason for attending a wrestling show and more money for the company/wrestlers is great. HOWEVER, when fans attend to see who wins the matches, there's not nearly the potential for a talent vacuum like ROH experienced in 2019. It's why ROH survived despite everyone thinking they were through when they lost Punk, Joe, Dragon, Black, etc.... In 2019, once the cool kids left, all ROH was left with were its hardcore fans that it had stopped catering to.

[Shanahan]

For me, it's probably a combination of the AEW crew and Delirious's booking. Post-Gabe, but prior to the Bucks becoming the biggest thing in indy wrestling, ROH still created new stars and turned over the top of the card regularly. From 2010-2012, ROH made Davey Richards, Kevin Steen, Adam Cole, Kyle O'Reilly, Elgin, Bobby Fish, etc.... into top stars. When the Bucks got big and the NJPW relationship got strong that stopped, or at least stagnated. The number of talents that languished in the midcard with no direction before heading elsewhere in 2014-2018 is embarrassing. ROH did nothing w/ Keith Lee, Cedric Alexander, Ciampa, Donovan Dijak, Lio Rush, etc.... For a long time, the only path to a big push was being involved with BTE. It's not clear whether that's the Bucks or Delirious, but it was definitely a problem, both for the product and in creating the perception that ROH was no longer the place to go to make your name through hard work and great matches.

Once the AEW crew left, it created a massive talent vacuum and we got the collapse that was 2019. I'm not saying the Bucks held people down, but ROH seems to have felt (rightly) that the Bucks/AEW crew were the hottest thing going and (wrongly) that they'd stick around for the long-term. The Bucks also dramatically changed why people attend wrestling shows. When I first got into ROH, it was because I wanted to see who won the matches and what would happen with the storylines. When the Bullet Club was at its peak, it seemed like fans attended because they wanted to be around this supremely cool group of people, shout their catchphrases, and do their hand signs. I think either is a perfectly valid reason for attending a wrestling show and more money for the company/wrestlers is great. HOWEVER, when fans attend to see who wins the matches, there's not nearly the potential for a talent vacuum like ROH experienced in 2019. It's why ROH survived despite everyone thinking they were through when they lost Punk, Joe, Dragon, Black, etc.... In 2019, once the cool kids left, all ROH was left with were its hardcore fans that it had stopped catering to.

Very good points...i think after the mass exits ROH got gun shy on pushing anyone they thought was WWE "worthy".

[Montana]

Both very good points and i think Wavelet hit the nail on the hit in terms of the ways the fans wanted to see the bucks and be part of a "cool group". The matches/storylines and making new stars were kind of put on the back burner.

Dalton Castle was certainly made in 2017, beating Cody for the ROH world title on it's biggest show. That's probably the biggest non-elite star during that time. To a much lesser degree Matt Taven and Shane Taylor were getting pushed a bit. Keith Lee was never under contract. And i still feel like Lio Rush/Dijak just weren't with the company long enough before exiting. Cedric had talent; but he wasn't a standout compared to the other in the locker room at the time. Ciampa was always hurt. But yeah, things certainly could have worked out a bit differently. I think Ciampa was posed to be a big star in ROH; just with injuries, and he didn't get pushed fast enough. I think the same could be said for Adam Page or Marty Scurll too. ROH likes to build these guys up. Fast Forward to 2019; they had brand new people coming in main eventing.

[BurningHammer]

Ciampa, Dijak, Lio Rush, to some extent O’Reilly were all mismanaged, used poorly or generally just given absolute rubbish to try and progress with. Weirdly Jay White who wasn’t even signed to the company had a much better run than all of them. Ciampa especially, that guy was flip flopped on more times than I can remember, when he beat Taven, or tore up the ring I thought yep they’ve got it then it would just go nowhere. Was so infuriating, and to see what he has evolved into is huge credit to for not giving up.

If it weren’t for what’s happening now, LSG and a couple of others would also fall under that category as well. Seemingly though a lot of these issues are getting less and less of an occurrence.

[YimYac]

For me, it's probably a combination of the AEW crew and Delirious's booking. Post-Gabe, but prior to the Bucks becoming the biggest thing in indy wrestling, ROH still created new stars and turned over the top of the card regularly. From 2010-2012, ROH made Davey Richards, Kevin Steen, Adam Cole, Kyle O'Reilly, Elgin, Bobby Fish, etc.... into top stars. When the Bucks got big and the NJPW relationship got strong that stopped, or at least stagnated. The number of talents that languished in the midcard with no direction before heading elsewhere in 2014-2018 is embarrassing. ROH did nothing w/ Keith Lee, Cedric Alexander, Ciampa, Donovan Dijak, Lio Rush, etc.... For a long time, the only path to a big push was being involved with BTE. It's not clear whether that's the Bucks or Delirious, but it was definitely a problem, both for the product and in creating the perception that ROH was no longer the place to go to make your name through hard work and great matches.

Cole, O'Reilly and Bobby were not top stars in 2012. RedDragon didn't even win their first tag belts until mid 2013. Cole didn't become a full fledge main eventer until 2013 later than RedDragon.

People keep saying ROH misused Keith Lee, he was barely in ROH fulltime for a full year (only dark matches before that). His last match was him and Shane vs the Briscoes. PBK were getting a steady push in the tag team division. ROH offered Keith/Shane a deal but Evolve/Gabe promised Keith a huge singles run and title win so he chose that. Lio Rush was the same thing, he was only in ROH for a full year as a full time roster member also as a 22 year old kid with about 2-3 years actual in-ring experience. How often does someone off the indies win a title in their first year with ROH?

Keith and Lio were both receiving steady pushes up the card, booked on pretty much every show. Someone not winning a title in their first year does not mean they were misused.

[Wavelet Transform]

Cole, O'Reilly and Bobby were not top stars in 2012. RedDragon didn't even win their first tag belts until mid 2013. Cole didn't become a full fledge main eventer until 2013 later than RedDragon.

People keep saying ROH misused Keith Lee, he was barely in ROH fulltime for a full year (only dark matches before that). His last match was him and Shane vs the Briscoes. PBK were getting a steady push in the tag team division. ROH offered Keith/Shane a deal but Evolve/Gabe promised Keith a huge singles run and title win so he chose that. Lio Rush was the same thing, he was only in ROH for a full year as a full time roster member also as a 22 year old kid with about 2-3 years actual in-ring experience. How often does someone off the indies win a title in their first year with ROH?

Keith and Lio were both receiving steady pushes up the card, booked on pretty much every show. Someone not winning a title in their first year does not mean they were misused.

Cole and O'Reilly were pushed as the future as soon as they signed. They jobbed a lot as Future Shock in 2010, but by 2011 O'Reilly was in the final 2 of SOTF, by 2012 they were main eventing shows (notably the 10th anni), and Cole had his breakout in the hybrid rules match a few months later. You can debate whether or not that makes them "top guys", but the point remains the same even if you move into 2013, since the Bucks/NJPW stuff didn't kick into full gear until 2014.

To their credit, they did a similar push with Scurll and Ospreay when they signed in 2016. However, Ospreay was never around enough for it to matter and even Scurll, for all his Bullet Club connections, never got to the level that Cole and O'Reilly did. They also completely wasted Scurll in 2019 having him faff around in an endless series of (admittedly fun) 6 man tags, waiting to see whether he'd re-up.

Keith Lee left because he thought he could do better for himself elsewhere. That perception is part of the problem ROH had from 2014-2019. And it's not about belts. If you need proof of that, look at how irrelevant the TV title reigns of Silas, Kenny King, Kushida (barely remembered he had the belt), and Punishment all were in the grand scheme of ROH.

All of the people I mentioned ended up in substantially better spots when they left ROH. That wasn't always solely because of ROH's ineptitude, but it was at least a part in some cases and the dominant part in others.

[KL_]

Now we can hope ROH learned from the history and we'll never gonna see "2019" again.
To be honest, I believe they did. In my opinion first months of 2020, before Covid, was very promising. This Covid break and Marty's SpeakingOut issue still hurts me because I believe with no break or just with Marty still as a "captain", Ring of Honor would be really great today (I'm not saying it's not good now ).

Hard to pick only one, but I chose 'Delirious'.

[AnHonorableMention]

I voted for the fans. As one myself, I believe the fans need to hold ROH more accountable for the stagnation and exits of so many talents. The bond between Delirious & Joe Koff is incredibly uncomfortable. There are so many talented people in ROH right now and their use has been suspect at best for those still here since 2014. After the G1 Supercard the drop was expected. Joey & Bubba were cogs in the machine and drove off just as many people as they could, not to mention the personal situations for both.

At the end of the day wrestling exists because people pay to see it. There's enough here to keep paying but this restart was much needed because Delirious is washed.

[supersonic]

I'll give the difficult answer and grant it to Cary Silkin.

There's no doubt that Sapolsky's termination was long overdue. Where Silkin erred is that he didn't get an improvement - he got a different flavor of shitty that was willing to satisfy the desire to put the title on Jerry Lynn, somehow thinking he was gonna be the "proven name" spearhead of ROH on HDNet that Chris Jericho would be for Dynamite.

The hiring of Pearce did nothing to stop the bleeding, and only resulted in alienating the dwindling audience even more. Silkin and Pearce both equally deserve the blame for 2009 being a total waste of Tyler Black. This blue-balling of him in favor of the Lynn AND then consecutive chickenshit heel Aries pushes was a true shit sandwich for the title that had gained so much respect and prestige over the prior 5-6 years.

In addition to hiring Pearce, Silkin took far too long to fire him. By the time that he did, the company was bleeding so much money that the DVD production became unfathomably shitty, and even with a fresh mind in Hunter Johnston at the helm with Jim Cornette as a consultant, it was too late.

And because of these horrendous decisions made by Silkin, because of his failure to find an improvement to the burned out Sapolsky, because of his stubbornness to put the title on the charisma vacuum Lynn, because of how he allowed Black to be Luger'd, because of how long he took to fire Pearce... it was the final blow to the "golden age" come summer 2011, bringing it all to an end 24 hours before CM Punk would sit down and bring his pipebomb-style promo to the mainstream.

And we all know how the past decade since then has gone under current ownership.

[Reaper G]

While there are many variables listed, I think those culminated at the G1 Supercard. Remember, when tickets went on sale and quickly sold out, the Elite were still on the roster; losing them might have taken a lot of excitement and expectations from the fans. Bully's creative contributions didn't help (astonishing how knowledgeable he sounds on Busted Open but that didn't translate in ROH). I was never really against Taven, but he was the least of the three choices to become champion. The aftermath from that show was tough for even the best booker to clear up quickly. And let's face it, ROH fans are a tough, almost too demanding bunch.

[maxx_powerz]

I didn't vote for SBG but with more time to think about it, I think I should have. There's no reason ROH couldn't have been what AEW became. The exact ratio of blame between Koff not having ambition for the product and SBG not spending are murky and interlocked, obviously. But most accounts seem to indicate a pile of money and the book could have kept Cody and the Bucks. Not sure where that leaves Kenny, Jericho, Mox, etc. But its not like SBG couldn't have signed everyone AEW has signed with loose change they found in a couch.

[Montana]

I'll give the difficult answer and grant it to Cary Silkin.

There's no doubt that Sapolsky's termination was long overdue. Where Silkin erred is that he didn't get an improvement - he got a different flavor of shitty that was willing to satisfy the desire to put the title on Jerry Lynn, somehow thinking he was gonna be the "proven name" spearhead of ROH on HDNet that Chris Jericho would be for Dynamite.

The hiring of Pearce did nothing to stop the bleeding, and only resulted in alienating the dwindling audience even more. Silkin and Pearce both equally deserve the blame for 2009 being a total waste of Tyler Black. This blue-balling of him in favor of the Lynn AND then consecutive chickenshit heel Aries pushes was a true shit sandwich for the title that had gained so much respect and prestige over the prior 5-6 years.

In addition to hiring Pearce, Silkin took far too long to fire him. By the time that he did, the company was bleeding so much money that the DVD production became unfathomably shitty, and even with a fresh mind in Hunter Johnston at the helm with Jim Cornette as a consultant, it was too late.

And because of these horrendous decisions made by Silkin, because of his failure to find an improvement to the burned out Sapolsky, because of his stubbornness to put the title on the charisma vacuum Lynn, because of how he allowed Black to be Luger'd, because of how long he took to fire Pearce... it was the final blow to the "golden age" come summer 2011, bringing it all to an end 24 hours before CM Punk would sit down and bring his pipebomb-style promo to the mainstream.

And we all know how the past decade since then has gone under current ownership.

Well explained response... I think it's a valid argument. At first, i was kinda like no way; but i can see both sides of it. Around 2008-2009 ROH kinda slowed momentum, with staying the same/instead of growing. I could argue that no one else was ready and/or no other better options than Sapolsky. You could argue ROH had been the best North American product during this time.... even if it wasn't as great as it was.

I think Tyler Black winning the title in 2009; doesn't dramatically change the course for ROH history. He basically debut in Fall 2007; Had a run with AOTF and the tag titles in 2008; towards the end of 2008 / early 2009 AOTF broke up so they needed to run that angle to set up Black for the belt. They knew in late 2008 Black would be a big part of the company moving forward, as they choose him to face Joe; also feud with Bryan Daneilson in 2009. 2009 basically was chasing the belt and building him up. If he won it right away; who would have been chasing him? Would the fans accept him, as a newly face turned champ, or turn on him. In 2010 he won the belt; and delivered some great title matches, but he was gone from the company 7 months after winning the belt.

Austin Aires didn't really get a proper run with the title he won the first time as well. So no issues there. As for Jerry Lynn, I think it was a mix of the movie "the wrestler" , the fact he was a legend, and probably more so right place/right time. Nigel also had multiple injuries as this point too. Aires won the belt 2 months later, so Lynn was more of a transitional champ.

Hindsight is probably 20/20 for the championship picture, but my guess is that ROH didn't feel the need to immediately give Black the world title after losing the tag title; and exiting AOTF. They probably thought he'd be with the company a few more years at least. Tyler Black was also 22-23 years old in 2009... so maybe he wasn't ready from a backstage perspective to carry the company.

Some of this too, was ROH playing the hand it was dealt. They were basically just surviving with WWE & TNA eyeing their roster up and down at around this time too. It was happening before; but with the PPV deal ; things started to change for them; as they were an emerging as competition to the others.

[supersonic]

There was no excuse to delay Black for Jerry Lynn, who bombed as ECW Champion and had done nothing in the 7-8 years since its death to boost his brand in any significant way. If Lynn himself had gotten a chase leading up to Houston that measured up to Gibson's 2005, which DID get over, then sure, maybe.

The fans were ready for Black in 2008. Period. It's the one thing Sapolsky had ready for Final Battle 2008, then transition to Davey Richards eventually. Black vs. Jacobs (even while going through a rough period with drugs) could've even done more for the title than Lynn's painfully humdrum run that did nothing for business, and everyone in their right minds knew would do nothing for business.

There was a replacement for Sapolsky by 2009, as we now know by 2010, he had discussions of getting in the business and advocated for a Kurt Angle vs. Bryan Danielson program elsewhere.

I say by late summer 2009, after the consecutively cold reigns of Lynn and Aries, it was time to fire Pearce, and rather than waste money on appearances from Bret, and even more money on bringing back Flair, and instead of turning to Jim Cornette...

The head booker AND the storyline commissioner... PAUL HEYMAN.