So is it safe to say the old ROH is gone?

[fm20000]

This isn't a thread to say LOL ROH SUCKS NOW!!!1111 BRING BACK GABE ERA!!!

While I'm not a fan of the current product, I'm sure some people out there are. This is more to talk about the difference in direction.

It's obvious that this company is no longer the wrestling driven company that it used to be. ROH used to be about great wrestling first and characters second. Every night whether a PPV, house show, or anything, you knew you were going to get some great matches. Now it seems to be more about big name stars and characters to build their TV show.

Instead of shows having "COME SEE GREAT WRESTLING!" on the marquee, it's "COME SEE STARS RHINO, WGTT, JAY LETHAL, DAVEY RICHARDS, KEVIN STEEN, AND MATT HARDY!!". And while that might be working for them business wise, it's obvious that their target audience has changed.

The whole point of ROH before was that it was an alternative to TNA and WWE's sports entertainment style. They were trying to sell wrestling. That's not how it feels anymore at all. Yes, we still are going to get some good matches with some of the guys on the roster because those guys are just naturally great in the ring, but that doesn't feel like what they are trying to sell. I honestly don't know what ROH is trying to sell. Stars and a good TV show? I mean usually a company has a complete direction that they are going in, but that seems impossible to decide with ROH.

WWE- Sports entertainment targeted towards younger people
TNA - Sports entertainment targeted towards adults
PWG - Great wrestling
Chikara - Over the top comic book like characters/storylines, and just a fun product
CZW - Hardcore deathmatch style wrestling and some solid wrestling, with TV-MA storylines
ROH - ?????

I don't know what to say ROH's current direction is. But it seems they've moved on from trying to grab the hardcore wrestling fanbase to trying to grab the mainstream one. It's a different product for a different audience now. I think instead of continuing to watch and complaining on here, Twitter, etc, people should try to just find something else to watch if they expect to see the ROH of old.

[Duke of Bridgewater]

I discovered ROH in 2009, picking and choosing DVDs from different years to see just good wrestling. I didn't actually follow the promotion. I didn't care for storylines. Right now, I follow the weekly TV, but pick and choose DVDs and iPPV/MP4 from a variety of promotions.

How was "the old ROH"? Did the average fan buy all the DVDs (almost one per week)?

The whole point of ROH before was that it was an alternative to TNA and WWE's sports entertainment style.

How many promotions targeted a worldwide audience, like ROH did, 5 or 10 years ago? Now there are many alternatives to TNA, WWE and ROH.

[DXvsNWO1994]

To answer your question....Yes, the old ROH is gone. It's been gone, for almost two years now. But that not necessarily a bad thing. ROH is EVOLVING. It's doing what it's needs to survive as an Indy Promotion. That's probably the whole reason why they took the Sinclair Deal in the first place...A relatively secure future.

[JigsawVs.Jason]

it's not a secure future, if they shit all over the loyal, die hard fanbase. Do you think casual fans will actually continue to support this company? I doubt it...don't listening to the core fanbase is the dumbest thing ROH can do right now, and I honestly hope they realize this

[DXvsNWO1994]

it's not a secure future, if they shit all over the loyal, die hard fanbase. Do you think casual fans will actually continue to support this company? I doubt it...don't listening to the core fanbase is the dumbest thing ROH can do right now, and I honestly hope they realize this

The question that has to be asked though is where ROH would be right now WITHOUT the Sinclair Deal. When a wrestling promotion losses a TV deal (HDNet in ROH's case), it's a step backwards. Could ROH have honestly gone back to doing solely PPV's and DVD Taping shows like in 07 & 08 and still be profitable? I'm not sure. I think the new deal was necessary. Could ROH go back to the way it was before it's first tv deal when it was only PPV & DVD tapings, thus relying solely on the die-hard fans? Sure. Buts that's not moving forward. That's remaining stagnant

[JigsawVs.Jason]

But this is not about the Sinclair deal, of course ROH in 2011 was not making much, if any profit, because they did not have a TV deal. However, being owned by Sinclair does not mean they have to change the mentality of the company. If they would continue bringing in Japanese talent, psuhing the best Indy wrestlers available they would certainly attract casual fans as well.

But by pushing big names over awesome talents like Generico, Young Bucks, etc, they shit all over the longtime, loyal, die hard fans and if they turn away from the product, who's left to support them. Do you honestly beleive, casual fans will regularly, over a long period of time support ROH? I doubt it.

I guess what you are saying is, they should cater to both the die hard fans and the casual ones. I agree. What could that look like? For instance bringin in Matt Hardy for one show to bring over Adam Cole in a midcard match, while haveing say Elgin and Steen tear the house down in the main event. Another example might be Finlay being booked for two iPPVs. I thought both matches were extremely disappointing, but I have no problem with iut, because it was not the main focus of the shows AND most importantly, Finlay is actually a very good worker.

BUT, booking big names like Hardy and Rhino (who are and never were good wrestlers to begin with, especially Hardy, that guy is as untalented in singles competition as Ryback) in the main event is shitting all over the die hard fans and ONLY caters to casual fans. And that will come to haunt them, because casual fans will not stay in for the long haul.

[ROHFanAnthony]

The old ROH is definitely gone. Though ROH would have been gone for good if Sinclair didn't step in, I really believe that. Once wrestling goes corporate, it has to change. Look what happened to NWA after Turner bought it. It was completely different from before. I miss the old ROH myself. Like FM20000 said, wrestling is what sold. Not certain stars. I also miss wrestlers coming out to real music, but it's very understandable why that can't be done anymore. IMO the HDNET show was much better than this one. So that's another thing I miss about the old roh.

I just read about Matt Hardy coming in. That's another thing I don't like about the new company. They're bringing in these old wwe mid carders to "possibly" get more attention for the product. But Matt Hardy is a joke now. Anyway, I don't want to rant anymore about old roh vs new roh. You know what they say- All good things come to an end.

[187_Joeism]

If you have a TV show you have to change your format, you can or can´t like it, but it is what it is, they are trying to please the diehards realasing the house shows and i think that hurting the continuity of the TV Show. I think they will end doing just like WWE or TNA and not realasing them.

When you have TV you also have to look for wrestlers that apart of wrestling well can fit into the TV format, that´s why they bring someone like QT Marshall recently. I don´t think they can please the hardcore fanbase and the Casuals because the hardcore fans don´t want ROH to grow, they want the company to stay small, that nearly killed ROH and Cary had to sold the company to SBG so i don´t know what to think about that, I loved old ROH but that was a awesome period of time with awesome generation of wrestlers and maybe never happen again and i like the current ROH, one was when ROH was an small indy growing up and the other is the ROH style with a touch of enterteiment.

Asking fm20000 question about ROH direction i think they try to have a mix of great wrestling and enterteiment to attract as much people as possible.

[DBSommer]

Yes, it's gone. But all old wrestling is gone, because it evolves. Wrestling has changed from the 70's to something else in the 80's to something else in the 90's etc. That ROH has been around long enough to have evolved is saying something. But you have to evolve to stay alive in the business. The territories disappeared because not enough people watched them. They didn't change. WCW even ECW, couldn't change in a way that made them solvent and they disappeared as well. Formulas stop working after a while, and you have to figure out a new one to work. If the old system had been working, they wouldn't have changed it and ROH would still be what it was 6 years ago or bigger than ever.

And once you get old enough, you'll realize everything changes, and you won't like a lot of those changes in anything. Look at what they've done to music and fashion in the last 20 years. It's a sign you're getting old when you harken back to how much better things were in the old days.

[Lord_Snow]

One thing to keep in mind is that the main reason ROH fired Gabe in 2008 was to change to the direction of the creative away from focusing solely on the die-hard fans. So this has been a long term goal of ROH even before Sinclair. With HDNet there was not enough exposure to really attract the casual fan. Now with the Sinclair stations they are more actively going after the casual fans. You can of course argue that this direction won't work, just as you can argue that the old ROH wouldn't be working today either. They want to increase ippv buys and attendance and believe that just by going after the same die-hard fans, who are always the first to criticize, they won't increase business. I mean look at DGUSA and Evolve. They are booked by Gabe like old ROH, feature Japanese talent and all the indy darlings, yet they draw 200 people tops at live events and hardly anyone talks about these companies.

[DXvsNWO1994]

I agree with a lot of what you guys (Anthony, Joe, DB & lord snow) said. The old ROH is gone and them going to a tv product had a hand in them changing from what they used to be. If they did stay small & only catered to die-hards, they would not have been able to go on. People forget that's why companies like ECW folded. Paul Heyman even said in the Rise & Fall DVD that ECW would not have survived as long as it did without the tv deal in '99. So yes I think ROH definitely needed go with Sinclair to keep going, and more importantly, attempt to grow. Does that change their product?....Of course it does, but that's the thing about life, you have to make sacrifices if it will benefit you in the long term.

[raymondisgood]

Things change. Yes, the old ROH is gone. It was awesome but it's time to move on. ROH is still in the early stages of change and I am confident that things will look up within the next few years. Look ROH as the Indianapolis Colts. They let go of Manning and basically everyone else there in order to start from the ground up for a strong future. Let's not be like those ECW fans.... "ECW! OMG! ECW! WOOO!" Some people just can't get over shit.

[Colt45]

I think I've seen enough of the Sinclair product to know the old ROH is dead. Just like ECW, it was successful because delivered something different. For the first time in a long time, the best matches in the world were happening in the US. Fans got **** matches just about every show, and when ROH could no longer deliver to those standards, fans jumped ship.

The problem today Sinclair ROH product doesn't do anything new. It doesn't offer anything you couldn't see somewhere else. ROH initially got over because it was all about guys in their early 20's having **** matches. It was a new concept for the time. Now the idea of young workers getting over on their athletic ability isn't new anymore. It's the norm. ROH needs to reinvent itself.

Any wrestling product is going to get stale if it doesn't change year after year. I can come to terms with ROH is not being the company it used to be. It cant be. Now I just watch and enjoy ROH for being a simple wrestling program that focuses on a well rounded project. Does it do something new? Not really. Does it still offer great matches? Sometimes. Is it Gabe Era circa 2004-2007? Hell no. But is it watchable, and still better than the mainstream? Yea I'd say so.

I'm just glad I built my collection up when the good stuff was affordable.

[Mdodmod]

Its getting to the point where I wish ROH fans would start putting more of their money into PWG. Those guys have been giving it their all show after show, constantly trying to do whatever it takes to send the crowd into a state of bliss. That roster deserves sooo much more respect and recognition for what they've been doing these past couple years. They've kept the independent spirt of wrestling alive as far as I'm concerned.

[thatwrestlingshow]

ROH has lost it's branding, the things that made it an alternative. ROH is abit like a really good burger stand, made delicious burgers unlike any place else, then they decided to scrap their original recipe and start making cheap McDonald's-like burgers. They try to appeal to the larger base but the problem is, if someone wants a McDonald's burger they'll go to McDonald's. If someone wants WWE Sports Entertainment, they go to WWE. Why would a mainstream fan waste time buying DVDs and watching a TV show that airs at 1 am in select markets only to get the exact same thing they could get with much less effort on USA Network.

ROH took the wrong direction the moment the deal was signed and everyone could feel it but no one would admit it. The only way ROH could become a mainstream power is if they forced their style to the mainstream, if they gave viewers a taste of something wildly different and they came back for more. ROH is an empty shell of itself, I don't mean that in the most dramatic sense, but it has no spirit, no direction, no calling card, no style, no reason for a fan to be fanatical. I've lamented on this many times before, in part because I was burned by the Sinclair execs but even then, I just want an alternative to the mainstream, ROH has become a bland imitation, the same sad fate of TNA a few years ago as they failed in Monday nights and it's very sad for me to see. I worked very hard to help ROH grow and I've watched ROH's momentum from only a few years back flounder.

[Mdodmod]

ROH is an empty shell of itself, I don't mean that in the most dramatic sense, but it has no spirit, no direction, no calling card, no style, no reason for a fan to be fanatical.

No reason for a fan to be fanatical, exactly. I do not attend ROH shows anymore and lose my s*** like I used to. The product isn't nearly as fun nor captivating as once was. Plus they do not deal completely with the new generation of guys like Jon Moxley, Johnny Gargano, and Sami Callihan.

[Colt45]

While I like PWG, I don't think their format is cutting edge. If anything they're presenting ring based product, where workmanship is valued above everything. It's entirely awesome in it's own right, but it's been done, and for years.

I think the next indy promotion to strike it big is going to focus on good story-lines. Think about it, most of ROH's iconic moments centered around good story-lines and booking. Generation Next, Punk's title reign, and the CZW Invasion, all were memorable for the matches, but also because they told good stories, progressed, and had PAYOFF!

For example: CZW has a territory war with ROH. ROH needs Homicide. Homicide has problems with Cornette. Cornette strikes a deal with Homicide to get his help. Homicide is granted his match and goes on to face Danielson. Danielson has sustained too much damage during his legendary run. Homicide capitalizes on it and wins the big one. PAYOFF!

It's all about good writing.

I like watching wrestling for the matches but also because I like storytelling. Part of what made the Punk vs Joe so series so special was because involved multiple compelling storys. Is Joe unstoppable? Is Punk the man to beat him? What would happen without a time limit? It made for must see wrestling. There isn't enough of this type of story telling going on. Nobody cares about Steen taking over the company. It's a bum angle. Nobody cares when Elgin is gonna snap, we already know he's going to. It's a bum angle. There's nothing compelling going on in ROH's creative department save for Cole vs O'Reilly.

[Wrestlingisback]

I think the old ROH is gone, but it shouldn't be all that surprising. Look at Turner/Crockett, ECW/TNN or TNA/Spike. They all adjusted when subjected to their new TV masters. Heck even HDNet resulted in Jerry Lynn, D-Lo, Daniels etc.
I get why it happens, but I don't agree with it.
The quest for the casual fan is flawed IMO. Pro wrestling is on a serious decline in interest and the declining casual fanbase is more than satisfied with what WWE trots out every week.
Every fed that has gone national has been on this mythical quest for casual fans or the millions of fans that bailed when WCW went under. It's time to give that up.
This is especially true for ROH. Unlike WWE or even TNA, you have to work to be an ROH fan-whether it be ordering an Ippv, DVD or finding if it airs in your area. Casual wrestling fans don't work to watch wrestling IMO. They tune in on Monday night, pick up merch at the store or hit up a live event at the big city venue.
Feds like ROH need to quit chasing the mythical casual and older fans and start focusing on creating new wrestling fans. You got a far better chance with a dedicated die hard fanbase, word of mouth and a product that stands out and appeals to a target demographic.

[Mdodmod]

think the next indy promotion to strike it big is going to focus on good story-lines. It's all about good writing.

I think there is truth to what you wrote. But without good characters a story will always fall short, and in wrestling a good match has to pay off the ending. Basically what your saying, Story and Wrestling both have to work together, both have to excel in excellence.

With PWG I just love how you can still see a crowd loudly cheer as one because they just absolutely friggin love what they are seeing. I do wish PWG could pick up their writing a bit, but the effort their roster puts in is amazing nonetheless and they deserve recognition for that.

[syxxpakk]

It's not really safe to say anything

But I feel like it's slowly going away. I don't buy the TV thing, as HDnet did a perfectly good job of keeping the ROH-feel while producing fairly compelling storylines and leading to two of the highest ordered iPPVs. In the case of BITW, ROH was off TV for a couple of months prior, but the last bit of TV was building toward it.