So is it safe to say the old ROH is gone?

[fm20000]

The HDNet show was used to build the overall product. The SBG show has become the entire product.

[187_Joeism]

Gime an example of that, for me the SBG show were only throw together matches all the time but in some rare ocasions that they have some storyline on the show.

[fm20000]

The house shows really don't mean anything anymore and the results are rarely mentioned. The video wires are gone now too, and things like Steen or someone posting letters to people on the ROH website. All storylines are based around the TV show now, while during the HDNet era, the TV show was used to just build current storylines and build new stars. If you didn't watch the TV show then you could get away with just watching the DVD's, video wires, and reading news wires. You can't do that now because half of those avenues are gone.

[187_Joeism]

House Shows can´t be important when you have a TV Show, Videowires are now Inside ROH. When you have a TV Show you need to book things in the TV in a way to make it must see to find out about what is going to happen in the next iPPV if you didn´t do that is pointless to have a TV Show. DVD market right now in independent wrestling in general is dying because of the iPPVs, the only big places that still do that are AAW, CHIKARA and PWG.

[astoph]

Thats why "house shows" should become the tv show. Then they will mean more and maybe draw more interest, in turn improving attendance. Keep in mind that ROH still turns some kind of profit from dvd sales. Otherwise they would no longer bother with them.

[SteenMark23]

To me, HDNet did a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better job at everything SBG tries to do, while still providing incredible house shows and iPPVs. SBG just feels a thrown together, low budget show that not only brings the product down, but comes off (and I really hate to say this) as WWELite.

[BigTChamp]

I think the old ROH is gone, but it shouldn't be all that surprising. Look at Turner/Crockett, ECW/TNN or TNA/Spike. They all adjusted when subjected to their new TV masters. Heck even HDNet resulted in Jerry Lynn, D-Lo, Daniels etc.
I get why it happens, but I don't agree with it.
The quest for the casual fan is flawed IMO. Pro wrestling is on a serious decline in interest and the declining casual fanbase is more than satisfied with what WWE trots out every week.
Every fed that has gone national has been on this mythical quest for casual fans or the millions of fans that bailed when WCW went under. It's time to give that up.
This is especially true for ROH. Unlike WWE or even TNA, you have to work to be an ROH fan-whether it be ordering an Ippv, DVD or finding if it airs in your area. Casual wrestling fans don't work to watch wrestling IMO. They tune in on Monday night, pick up merch at the store or hit up a live event at the big city venue.
Feds like ROH need to quit chasing the mythical casual and older fans and start focusing on creating new wrestling fans. You got a far better chance with a dedicated die hard fanbase, word of mouth and a product that stands out and appeals to a target demographic.

Very well said. I still think there's enough carryover from the glory days (for me, 2010 as I didn't watch regularly until HDNet) that I'm not ready to say the old ROH is gone, but it does seem to be dangling precariously right now.

I agree that ROH will eventually fail if it tries to change itself for the benefit of the casual audience. There's hardly room in today's wrestling business for two mainstream promotions, much less a third. Just look at TNA, they've had a great product and a laughable product and everything in between since debuting on Spike and they've been stuck in the same 0.9 - 1.2 ratings rut, holding their biggest PPV of the year in a 5,000 seat building while WWE regularly draws 12,000 + to their weekly television show.

If TNA can hardly make a dent in the casual marketplace with household names, a primetime show on basic cable, and strong production values, what chance does ROH, with its washed out video, its bad timeslots and its repetitive bumper ads for events and merch that come off like a used car lot commercial, have? ECW thrived for a time despite similar obstacles precisely because it offered something different, something innovative and exciting that you couldn't see from the big two at the time.

If ROH really wants to expand their fanbase, why not use their newfound exposure to help any casual fans that tune in discover what the diehards have known all along.. that ROH is the home of awesome, balls to the wall wrestling, top indy and international names, and compelling story arcs that make sense and lead to a payoff match where it actually matters who wins and who loses. ROH can succeed by making their core fanbase passionate about the product again, and by letting go of the myth that in order to expand your horizons you need to start putting out a watered down, WWE lite product.

[Slam Sebastion]

Yes, it is true that ROH of old is gone but what did you guys expect was going to happen by getting a TV deal. The way Ring of Honor ran there organization before the tv deal was similar to running only PPV shows once a month. You can't have all these "Dream Matches" on the TV show or no one will buy the PPV events.

Now ,to the people saying that ROH has lost it's Identity and direction, that is crazy because on the show many times during matches Nigel Mcguinness has said that ROH is all about Inovation (of wrestling techniques) and showcasing many different styles of wrestling . The problem is that ROH only has an hour to do this and they have a very small roster of wrestlers.

What ROH really needs is a 2 hour show and when this happens then they could go back to signing some of the top inovative indie wrestlers out there Thus bringing back some of the elements that we loved in the ROH of old.

[BigTChamp]

I understand the limits of a weekly hour long TV show, and most weeks I don't have any major gripes with the amount or quality of wrestling on the episodes. What myself, and I think a lot of fans are finding lacking in the current ROH isn't the pacing of the television show but rather the declining talent roster, keeping former ROH stalwarts at home in favor of bringing in WWE midcarders, and an overall presentation that's starting to look less like a cutting edge independent product and more like southern regional rasslin'.

[Captain44]

ROH IMO hasn't gotten away from the wrestling aspect of things, but rather put more of a focus on things to give it a MMA feel. The ROH show now reminds me of a old school wrestling show, which sometimes isn't a bad thing if done right, but does it fit ROH, probably not to the hardcore fans. At times the show feels thrown together at the last second, then other times it's really good. ROH needs to find a fine line to keep it's hardcore fans happy, while trying to grow the company to a wider viewing audience. I think bringing in Matt Hardy and the WWE Cast-Off's is a mistake, as I’ve already voiced my thoughts on this on this board before. One thing that has bugged me about ROH since Sinclair took over, was the taking away of the Message Board. I don’t know who’s all it was, but I think it was a huge mistake. The message board for all it’s good, and bad was a key place for ROH fans IMO. One thing I always loved about ROH was they listened to their fans, now I don’t think ROH does that, or you wouldn’t see WWE Cast-Off’s.

[2 Gatz]

It`ll be safe to say the old ROH is gone if Matt Hardy headlines Final Battle.

As things are right now, I don`t feel the product is really all that disconnected from say 5 years ago.

[Mdodmod]

ROH knew they were going in a direction that their core wouldn't appreciate when they removed the forum.

[JigsawVs.Jason]

I think the old ROH is gone, but it shouldn't be all that surprising. Look at Turner/Crockett, ECW/TNN or TNA/Spike. They all adjusted when subjected to their new TV masters. Heck even HDNet resulted in Jerry Lynn, D-Lo, Daniels etc.
I get why it happens, but I don't agree with it.
The quest for the casual fan is flawed IMO. Pro wrestling is on a serious decline in interest and the declining casual fanbase is more than satisfied with what WWE trots out every week.
Every fed that has gone national has been on this mythical quest for casual fans or the millions of fans that bailed when WCW went under. It's time to give that up.
This is especially true for ROH. Unlike WWE or even TNA, you have to work to be an ROH fan-whether it be ordering an Ippv, DVD or finding if it airs in your area. Casual wrestling fans don't work to watch wrestling IMO. They tune in on Monday night, pick up merch at the store or hit up a live event at the big city venue.
Feds like ROH need to quit chasing the mythical casual and older fans and start focusing on creating new wrestling fans. You got a far better chance with a dedicated die hard fanbase, word of mouth and a product that stands out and appeals to a target demographic.

Very well said. I still think there's enough carryover from the glory days (for me, 2010 as I didn't watch regularly until HDNet) that I'm not ready to say the old ROH is gone, but it does seem to be dangling precariously right now.

I agree that ROH will eventually fail if it tries to change itself for the benefit of the casual audience. There's hardly room in today's wrestling business for two mainstream promotions, much less a third. Just look at TNA, they've had a great product and a laughable product and everything in between since debuting on Spike and they've been stuck in the same 0.9 - 1.2 ratings rut, holding their biggest PPV of the year in a 5,000 seat building while WWE regularly draws 12,000 + to their weekly television show.

If TNA can hardly make a dent in the casual marketplace with household names, a primetime show on basic cable, and strong production values, what chance does ROH, with its washed out video, its bad timeslots and its repetitive bumper ads for events and merch that come off like a used car lot commercial, have? ECW thrived for a time despite similar obstacles precisely because it offered something different, something innovative and exciting that you couldn't see from the big two at the time.

If ROH really wants to expand their fanbase, why not use their newfound exposure to help any casual fans that tune in discover what the diehards have known all along.. that ROH is the home of awesome, balls to the wall wrestling, top indy and international names, and compelling story arcs that make sense and lead to a payoff match where it actually matters who wins and who loses. ROH can succeed by making their core fanbase passionate about the product again, and by letting go of the myth that in order to expand your horizons you need to start putting out a watered down, WWE lite product.

I couldn't agree more, the only way to get new fans and a larger audience is to deliver a prodcut vastly different from mainstream wrestling. Why would anybody watch ROH with a mainstream direction, when they could easily watch the same creative direction in TNA and WWE, who have better production adn it pains me to say it, but with Dragon, Punk and Aries being highlighted in WWE and TNA, ROH doesn't even have the best wrestlers available. The ONLY way to attract new viewers is to present a REAL alternative, something that they can't see anywhere else: Balls-to-the-Walls, exciting, pure wrestling, storylines that make sense and culminate with a big pay-off.
When I started to watch ROH in 2009, you knwo what was the first match I watched or the first match that blew my mind?
I was in Houston to watch Wrestlemania and I heard awesome things about ROH, but somehow got the impression (without watching anything of their stuff beforehand) it was just like TNA, exciting wrestling, but ridiculous booking. Since I'm from Europe and flying all the way to Houston just to watch WM, I decided to make the most of this trip and also go to the ROH shows in Houston. Then I saw KENTA and Davey beating the living hell out of each other and my life as a wrestling fan was completely turned upside down. I did not care all that much about WWE anymore, when I came home I wasn't talking about HBK vs Taker, I was talking about ROH and especially KENTA vs Davey non-stop, as I was so thrilled with their (to me, having only watched WWE and TNA up to this point) innovative, original wrestling style. It was something I had never seen before and that was what made me a die hard fan of ROH. And I can tell you the same goes for many of my friends who I've shown ROH. They are now regular fans watching the product and what they want to see, what I was so impressed of, is something different: the best wrestling on the planet, talents like KENTA, Davey, storylines like Steen/Generico, the crazy DG 6-Man Tags, basically stuff you will never see in TNA or WWE
THAT is what brings in new fans. Not WWE or TNA rejects working a couple of shows.

[Puma]

As soon as Sinclair took over the old Ring of Honor was dead. Their longterm vision was always to bring in old WWE and TNA names to create the perception that ROH wasn't a glorified indy. The current roster is the worst in all the time I've followed ROH. Not to be to negative, but you are sort of just waiting for the next contract to be up so WWE or TNA can just gobble them up. Its harder than ever for ROH to create a name, because WWE and TNA's business model these days revolves around athletic talent who they can groom into stars.

[icyhot]

Sinclair's wrestling company is Ring of Honor in name only. They happen to have a few talents wrestling for them that used to wrestle for Ring of Honor and that's pretty much it. If you enjoy Sinclair's current product and want to support them, that's great. But don't support them just out of loyalty to the Ring of Honor brand. Sinclair is not loyal to you. They want to make many new fans, not worry about keeping fans of the old Ring of Honor. This isn't the Ring of Honor the loyal fans grew to love, it's something different.

[BTW10]

The old Ring of Honor died on May 21, 2011.

[krispywrestling]

The old Ring of Honor died on May 21, 2011.

Agreed. Sometimes I just wish that this Sinclair owned wrestling company with cheap undercard talent and ex WWE/OVW guys on top would have been given a new name, and not be called Ring of Honor. I'm sure it's the same as a lot of old ECW fans wishing the WWE's version of ECW would've just been called something else, since it wasn't really ECW.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

The old Ring of Honor died on May 21, 2011.

I would even go back further and say that the Ring of Honor that I knew and loved started to die when Adam Pearce replaced Gabe. What I see from ROH now is Sinclair fucking a dead corpse.

[icyhot]

The old Ring of Honor died on May 21, 2011.

Agreed. Sometimes I just wish that this Sinclair owned wrestling company with cheap undercard talent and ex WWE/OVW guys on top would have been given a new name, and not be called Ring of Honor. I'm sure it's the same as a lot of old ECW fans wishing the WWE's version of ECW would've just been called something else, since it wasn't really ECW.

I think you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly how I felt about WWECW.

[Tree]

i end up with unending fits of laughter with all the hand-wringing and angst over the "new" ROH bringing in old WWE talent. From James Gibson to Brent Albright to Jimmy Yang and everyone in between, ROH has always used old WWE wrestlers. Heck, two of the three i mentioned above even won World Championships on ROH cards.

I've been watching ROH since the 1YA show. i've been to probably somewhere near 200 live ROH shows. and i've watched the ROH fans on message boards get whinier and whinier and whinier. it's gotten to the point where an outsider would come on this message boards, and wonder how people who came to like wrestling could cry so much.

yes, ROH has changed. but many of the things some of you complain about are just complaining for the sake of complaining. you're complaining about things ROH has been doing since day one - it's nothing new.