Too Much emphasis on the NJPW relationship

[Embracejg]

Leave it to the IWC to complain about a company bringing in puroresu stars TOO often.

[Big Red Machine]

Leave it to the IWC to complain about a company bringing in puroresu stars TOO often.

It's not "too often." The issue is bringing them in in the wrong places, such that they are taking up time that would better be used to push ROH's own TV product and to invest in ROH's own wrestlers. If Okada and Tanahashi were on 80% of the house show/VODs and only 2% of the TV/PPVs, I'd be much happier.

[JigsawVs.Jason]

Leave it to the IWC to complain about a company bringing in puroresu stars TOO often.

It's not "too often." The issue is bringing them in in the wrong places, such that they are taking up time that would better be used to push ROH's own TV product and to invest in ROH's own wrestlers. If Okada and Tanahashi were on 80% of the house show/VODs and only 2% of the TV/PPVs, I'd be much happier.

That right there is a ridiculous statement. Not that there is some truth to it, but booking the biggest stars that appear on ROH shows on VOD exclusively is downright bad business. People are paying to see Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, etc. vs American top guys.
I sure agree that only booking these NJPW vs ROH matches without a storyline will hurt the product in the long run, but let's not pretend that putting the big NJPW stars on PPV isn't clever.
I think they have to find a balance between 2015 and 2016. In the past year they made the mistake of not putting the big NJPW/ROH Shows on PPV. This year they overdid it by making almost every PPV a NJPW/ROH Show. I would be in favour of only booking 2-3 guys from NJPW per PPV, but passing up the opportunity to get extra buys by not booking any of the NJPW guys for the PPVs is silly.

[187_Joeism]

Booking NJPW on house shows instead of doing it on PPV/TV is a huge waste of money because house shows are the less important shows out of the 3 and should stay that way, they should just book fewer New Japan wrestler instead of bring in 5 or more wrestler they should book 3 and bring different wrestlers each time.

[Big Red Machine]

Leave it to the IWC to complain about a company bringing in puroresu stars TOO often.

It's not "too often." The issue is bringing them in in the wrong places, such that they are taking up time that would better be used to push ROH's own TV product and to invest in ROH's own wrestlers. If Okada and Tanahashi were on 80% of the house show/VODs and only 2% of the TV/PPVs, I'd be much happier.

That right there is a ridiculous statement. Not that there is some truth to it, but booking the biggest stars that appear on ROH shows on VOD exclusively is downright bad business. People are paying to see Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, etc. vs American top guys.
I sure agree that only booking these NJPW vs ROH matches without a storyline will hurt the product in the long run, but let's not pretend that putting the big NJPW stars on PPV isn't clever.
I think they have to find a balance between 2015 and 2016. In the past year they made the mistake of not putting the big NJPW/ROH Shows on PPV. This year they overdid it by making almost every PPV a NJPW/ROH Show. I would be in favour of only booking 2-3 guys from NJPW per PPV, but passing up the opportunity to get extra buys by not booking any of the NJPW guys for the PPVs is silly.

Do we have any evidence that these guys have actually helped PPV buys? They certainly haven't added any buzz. I think that, in the long term, it would be more valuable to ROH to spend that time on a feud that will help someone like Lio Rush or ACH or Jay White or Adam Page than it would be to throw Okada or Shibata on PPV against a midcarder.
As for the argument mostly using them on house shows is bad business, it all depends on which shows. On a house show in NYC or Toronto or Chicago or Philly or Atlanta they might well help draw quite a bit (as opposed to just 700 people in Vegas). I'm not saying they should never be on PPV, but I think one Global Wars-style PPV a year is enough, and they otherwise shouldn't be used unless there is either a story or a dream match. They don't need to be on TV all of the time (and certainly not if they're going to face midcarders like Castle or Silas), and certainly the New Japan undercard guys don't need to be on TV.

[Big Red Machine]

Booking NJPW on house shows instead of doing it on PPV/TV is a huge waste of money because house shows are the less important shows out of the 3 and should stay that way,

See my above comment as regards to PPV and TV. And just because house shows are less important than PPV or TV doesn't meant that having one or two New Japan guys there won't help boost attendance some, even if it's just an interesting match-up for someone like Nagata or Kojima.

they should just book fewer New Japan wrestler instead of bring in 5 or more wrestler they should book 3 and bring different wrestlers each time.

This part I agree with.

[187_Joeism]

Booking NJPW on house shows instead of doing it on PPV/TV is a huge waste of money because house shows are the less important shows out of the 3 and should stay that way,

See my above comment as regards to PPV and TV. And just because house shows are less important than PPV or TV doesn't meant that having one or two New Japan guys there won't help boost attendance some, even if it's just an interesting match-up for someone like Nagata or Kojima.

No way you make profit if you fly in someone from Japan for a house show, you can do it with Field of Honor because they were already here, same with Liger working Atlanta. House shows are not important right now, you should present a good card and even overdeliver with that because there is no reason why they are still doing different cards for house shows instead of the normal same card for every house show TV companies do.

[BurningHammer]

I am certainly fine with the talent coming over but if they are going to coming over as heavily as they have been this year, then there has to be more of something like what's being created with Lethal and Naito, interwoven story lines will make such a difference to the matches and just generally a better reason for bringing them over. If that isn't going to be the case then having the GLOBAL WARS tour is a much better way for both ROH and NJPW to highlight themselves together, it just adds a very special nature to the guys coming over and it can be something to be excited about rather than just, "coming on more NJPW guys"

What I will say though is that ROH having this relationship is hugely important considering how the Indy will soon be hard up on talent with many going to WWE in the next month.

[Big Red Machine]

Booking NJPW on house shows instead of doing it on PPV/TV is a huge waste of money because house shows are the less important shows out of the 3 and should stay that way,

See my above comment as regards to PPV and TV. And just because house shows are less important than PPV or TV doesn't meant that having one or two New Japan guys there won't help boost attendance some, even if it's just an interesting match-up for someone like Nagata or Kojima.

No way you make profit if you fly in someone from Japan for a house show, you can do it with Field of Honor because they were already here, same with Liger working Atlanta. House shows are not important right now, you should present a good card and even overdeliver with that because there is no reason why they are still doing different cards for house shows instead of the normal same card for every house show TV companies do.

This "normal" same card thing is pretty much only limited to WWE. TNA doesn't do it on the rare occasions that they have run house shows in the past few years, and New Japan doesn't do it, so it's really just WWE.
And the reasons to not run the same card is as follows:
1. There are a lot of fans who don't go to WWE house shows because they know that nothing they see there will matter.
2. Because you want to sell DVD/VODs
3. Because it can help you tell your stories more effectively by giving you more time to showcase something like a team rising up the ranks or someone getting frustrated by losses
4. So that, on the off chance that you run two markets decently close together (like a Philly/Baltimore double-shot) that someone actually show up to both shows instead of just one (this was not uncommon back in the day, and doesn't have to be now).

As for it not making money- you don't think they would more than make up for the plane ticket, hotel,and whatever percentage of Okada's payoff they would pay if they just brought Okada in for a double-shot in two healthy markets like Hopkins and Chicago?

[187_Joeism]

1. You can´t have TV + House shows that matter because is counterproductive and you can´t expect everyone to watch every show like when you were an indy.
2. Want to sell DVD/VOD should be the last of their concerns, sell PPV, TV ratings is the #1 priority of any company with TV.
3. I agree that you can showcase the storylines on houseshows but never nothing important to the storyline itself, also you shouldn´t do New Japan vs ROH storylines, you should do ROH storylines + New Japan showcases like they did at Death Before Dishonor.
4. Back in the day, this is not back in the day anymore! Different company, different priorities. Not every show needs to be important now because you have some shows (TV/PPV) that are more important than others (House shows).

And no, i don´t think you could make up for the plane ticket doing that because you are doing it for something that is not important, safe the special attractions for the important show, you can do the occasional Field of Honor type of house show but that should be it.

[187_Joeism]

I am certainly fine with the talent coming over but if they are going to coming over as heavily as they have been this year, then there has to be more of something like what's being created with Lethal and Naito, interwoven story lines will make such a difference to the matches and just generally a better reason for bringing them over. If that isn't going to be the case then having the GLOBAL WARS tour is a much better way for both ROH and NJPW to highlight themselves together, it just adds a very special nature to the guys coming over and it can be something to be excited about rather than just, "coming on more NJPW guys"

What I will say though is that ROH having this relationship is hugely important considering how the Indy will soon be hard up on talent with many going to WWE in the next month.

How doing something like Naito and Lethal make it better? Naito can´t lose, it doesn´t matter the story you are trying to tell because the outcome is not in doubt, same complain some have with booking just the matches. Doing a storyline makes it even better because Lethal is not going to have revenge against Naito.

[Big Red Machine]

1. You can´t have TV + House shows that matter because is counterproductive and you can´t expect everyone to watch every show like when you were an indy.
2. Want to sell DVD/VOD should be the last of their concerns, sell PPV, TV ratings is the #1 priority of any company with TV.
3. I agree that you can showcase the storylines on houseshows but never nothing important to the storyline itself, also you shouldn´t do New Japan vs ROH storylines, you should do ROH storylines + New Japan showcases like they did at Death Before Dishonor.
4. Back in the day, this is not back in the day anymore! Different company, different priorities. Not every show needs to be important now because you have some shows (TV/PPV) that are more important than others (House shows).

1. It is in no way counter-productive to have the house shows matter. I'm not saying you should do major storyline events at most house shows (I'd limit it to SCOH, Field of Honor, SOTF, maybe the New Japan joint shows, and maybe one other one randomly placed during the year). But they should be using the house shows to fill in the TV storylines. If the angle is that someone is deserving a title shot, he should get the wins on all of the house shows leading up to the TV where the shot is announced. If the angle is that a tag team is having trouble working together, then they should be having trouble on the house shows between the TV where it first happens and the TV where they break up.
Furthermore, if something important were to happen on a house show, it's not very difficult to just catch people up on TV. They just did that perfectly with War Machine vs. Lee & Taylor. Or how about Tag Wars? Silas & BCB won a tournament on some house shows, so they got a title shot on TV. There is no one in the world who will have trouble following that storyline after one sentence from Kevin Kelly.
It's also relatively easy to have self-contained storylines on the house shows. War Machine vs. Addiction has been exactly that. Hell... it could be just as simple as a guy picks up a couple of wins on a house show so he gets a title shot on a later house show. You don't even have to mention it on TV if you don't want to, but once again, all it would require is a one sentence explanation.
2. Yes. Selling PPVs and putting on good TV should be a top priority (especially the first one). But that is IN NO WAY MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE WITH HAVING HOUSE SHOWS THAT WILL SELL DVDs/VODs. In fact, I'd argue that it is easier to build up a PPV when you are putting on good house shows that matter to the storylines because it gives you more time to tell your story. You don't have to air everything that happens on the house shows, but mentioning events that happen on the house shows as supporting arguments for why someone deserves a title shot or why someone shouldn't be considered trustworthy, or why a tag team might want to break up helps sell your stories more by turning a one or two time incident (which is what we would get on TV to build up a PPV match) into a seven or eight time incident. This makes challengers feel more worthy and makes the wrestlers feel less like drama queens for being upset over one or two miscommunications.
3. If you think what we got at Death Before Dishonor was a New Japan "showcase" then I don't know what to tell you. It was a couple of New Japan top guys in disappointing matches against ROH midcarders, one New Japan midcarder only getting a title shot because he's in a stable with a top guy, and six undercard losers sh*tting the bed on a show they wanted people to pay $35 for.
4. If you gave me back to back shows I could go to and convinced me that it would be worth my while to go to both, I'd sure as hell do it. Yes, TV and PPV should me more important, but the system you are advocating for, putting on virtually the same card twice every weekend, would make house shows unimportant. A show can still be made to feel important without being as important as a TV or PPV.

And no, i don´t think you could make up for the plane ticket doing that because you are doing it for something that is not important, safe the special attractions for the important show, you can do the occasional Field of Honor type of house show but that should be it.

So basically your thought process is as follows:
- If ROH says "pay us money to watch Okada on PPV!" people will say "Wow! I'd love to see Okada! Here is my money."
- But if ROH says "pay us money to come see Okada LIVE in YOUR CITY!" people will say "meh. It's a just a house show."

Booking 101: Things are important if you make them important. Undertaker went something like 12-0 at WrestleMania before WWE started pushing it as this major thing and had guys like Orton try to come after him specifically to be the guy to break The Streak. When he won that twelfth match the fact that he was 12-0 didn't mean anything, but they made it mean something in the build-up to #13.
The same idea can apply to shows. What made shows like Final Battle or Glory By Honor or Death Before Dishonor more important than, say, Round Robin Challenge (which they also did for the first few years of the company's existence)? Because Gabe pushed them as being more important (while still trying to make all of the other shows feel important, too). If your attitude is to tell people that "it's a house show. The wrestlers will probably work really hard but nothing you see will really matter" (and running the same card two nights in a row is giant flashing neon sign that says that) then it's not going to draw well. But if you tell people "THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO COME SEE OKADA LIVE!" then people are going to be excited and want to come.