AEW Discussion

[DougN]

Look, no one loves 2005-2008 ROH more than me (Manhattan Mayhem 2005 really to Final Battle 2008). It's my absolute favorite run of a promotion ever.

But let's be honest. Saying there were almost no weak links or there was this high bar to be on the ROH roster from 2005-2008 is laughable. Just look at some of the guys that ROH used for their tag champs. Guys like Hero and Steen and Generico didn't get in because of some mythical high bar. Hero didn't get in because he had a high booking price even in 2004 relative to most of the other guys, and Hero had many detractors online who hated things like the cravate. Generico and Steen are very similar. I remember vividly people on the ROH forum and DVDVR shitting on ROH using them seriously in the tag division in 2007 because they were seen as a joke team. Part of it came from them getting buzz in PWG, which really only got a good reputation after BOLA 2006. Before that, they were seen as a tongue-in-cheek promotion that was low stakes fun and sometimes had a killer main event. Obviously people were dead wrong about Steen and Generico, and the Hero hate subsidized by 2008, but it was there.

No weak links ignores guys like Dixie, Izzy, Carnage Crew, Pelle Primeau, Shane Hagadorn, Grizzly Redwood, I could keep going on. Some of those guys were jobbers though -- that's totally fine. They served a role. But there were only so many slots in ROH back then so it's not like this mystery as to why Hero and Steen and Generico were not used. Honestly, they are not even the most glaring guys because they DID end up getting big runs in ROH, whereas people like Jerelle Clark and B-Boy and Arik Cannon were overlooked. Hell, they barely used most people from CHIKARA. What about Quackenbush?

ROH was crazy deep on top even in 2005. That's irrefutable. But they had weak links and the bar to get in was not that hard, especially considering how Gabe booked and used FIP as a feeder system.

I'm not sure why, but AEW is still divisive to people and I don't think it has anything to do with how they book or present their project. When people say stuff like "there's nobody in AEW currently like peak Homicide," it kind of shows how blind they are to what's in front of them, when you have guys like Darby Allin actually moving the needle in ratings and merchandise, even against nobodies. It's also disingenuous to a degree to say things like that when ROH at its best was a cult thing with a niche appeal whereas AEW is crossing over and picking up fans that WWE drove off in the past 20 years.

My main point was that if you look at how Tony Khan books his talent, there's a lot of similarities to Gabe in that he keeps people strong even when waiting in the rings and still has them lose key matches. Gabe borrowed from puro booking so you could say that Tony is doing the same, but his booking style seems more like it was influenced by ROH than NOAH and AJPW. Over half of the roster is kept strong to a degree which allows them to have a variety of main event matches for their shows as well as different people for title matches, similar to how Danielson could fight Delirious for the title multiple times OR how the tag titles could main event a show over a killer world title match like Danielson and Morishima. There's a pecking order for their roster for sure, but it's not set in stone and there are much more key players than random dudes.

Complaining about the botches even seems unfair. ROH in its prime had a lot of botches. WWE today still has botches. Yes, things like the Red Velvet moonsault are cringey. And that Cesar-Luchasaurus spot for months ago still lingers over both of them. But it's no different than Nia Jax being a walking advertisement for Botchamania or The Miz doing a ground and pound that makes the Dark Order look like Conor McGregor. ROH today might not be botch full, but clunky matches are just as bad as botches and watching PCO do a dive is a clunky as it gets.

AEW is not perfect though. People complaining about the roster size do have a point. They're getting too top heavy, which honestly is a problem promoters would love to have, but I do think it's going to hurt them when it comes time to crown Page as the top guy.... if they even do it now! I would like to see certain people utilized more. Yes, they are on Dark and Dark Elevation, but the problem there is practically nothing from those shows are ever mentioned on Dynamite. I know they do the cyrons with the results every week -- and that's fun -- but they need to show recaps of people picking up wins if we are to believe they are hot and on a winning streak.

[famicommander]

Meltzer reporting that Dark will mostly be taped out of Universal Studios in Orlando going forward, free to the public.

So I guess they're gonna tape out of the old Impact Zone?

[Montana]

Look, no one loves 2005-2008 ROH more than me (Manhattan Mayhem 2005 really to Final Battle 2008). It's my absolute favorite run of a promotion ever.

But let's be honest. Saying there were almost no weak links or there was this high bar to be on the ROH roster from 2005-2008 is laughable. Just look at some of the guys that ROH used for their tag champs. Guys like Hero and Steen and Generico didn't get in because of some mythical high bar. Hero didn't get in because he had a high booking price even in 2004 relative to most of the other guys, and Hero had many detractors online who hated things like the cravate. Generico and Steen are very similar. I remember vividly people on the ROH forum and DVDVR shitting on ROH using them seriously in the tag division in 2007 because they were seen as a joke team. Part of it came from them getting buzz in PWG, which really only got a good reputation after BOLA 2006. Before that, they were seen as a tongue-in-cheek promotion that was low stakes fun and sometimes had a killer main event. Obviously people were dead wrong about Steen and Generico, and the Hero hate subsidized by 2008, but it was there.

No weak links ignores guys like Dixie, Izzy, Carnage Crew, Pelle Primeau, Shane Hagadorn, Grizzly Redwood, I could keep going on. Some of those guys were jobbers though -- that's totally fine. They served a role. But there were only so many slots in ROH back then so it's not like this mystery as to why Hero and Steen and Generico were not used. Honestly, they are not even the most glaring guys because they DID end up getting big runs in ROH, whereas people like Jerelle Clark and B-Boy and Arik Cannon were overlooked. Hell, they barely used most people from CHIKARA. What about Quackenbush?

ROH was crazy deep on top even in 2005. That's irrefutable. But they had weak links and the bar to get in was not that hard, especially considering how Gabe booked and used FIP as a feeder system.

I'm not sure why, but AEW is still divisive to people and I don't think it has anything to do with how they book or present their project. When people say stuff like "there's nobody in AEW currently like peak Homicide," it kind of shows how blind they are to what's in front of them, when you have guys like Darby Allin actually moving the needle in ratings and merchandise, even against nobodies. It's also disingenuous to a degree to say things like that when ROH at its best was a cult thing with a niche appeal whereas AEW is crossing over and picking up fans that WWE drove off in the past 20 years.

My main point was that if you look at how Tony Khan books his talent, there's a lot of similarities to Gabe in that he keeps people strong even when waiting in the rings and still has them lose key matches. Gabe borrowed from puro booking so you could say that Tony is doing the same, but his booking style seems more like it was influenced by ROH than NOAH and AJPW. Over half of the roster is kept strong to a degree which allows them to have a variety of main event matches for their shows as well as different people for title matches, similar to how Danielson could fight Delirious for the title multiple times OR how the tag titles could main event a show over a killer world title match like Danielson and Morishima. There's a pecking order for their roster for sure, but it's not set in stone and there are much more key players than random dudes.

Complaining about the botches even seems unfair. ROH in its prime had a lot of botches. WWE today still has botches. Yes, things like the Red Velvet moonsault are cringey. And that Cesar-Luchasaurus spot for months ago still lingers over both of them. But it's no different than Nia Jax being a walking advertisement for Botchamania or The Miz doing a ground and pound that makes the Dark Order look like Conor McGregor. ROH today might not be botch full, but clunky matches are just as bad as botches and watching PCO do a dive is a clunky as it gets.

AEW is not perfect though. People complaining about the roster size do have a point. They're getting too top heavy, which honestly is a problem promoters would love to have, but I do think it's going to hurt them when it comes time to crown Page as the top guy.... if they even do it now! I would like to see certain people utilized more. Yes, they are on Dark and Dark Elevation, but the problem there is practically nothing from those shows are ever mentioned on Dynamite. I know they do the cyrons with the results every week -- and that's fun -- but they need to show recaps of people picking up wins if we are to believe they are hot and on a winning streak.

AEW has had Brock Anderson (in like his 2nd match) main eventing Dynamite, and Brandon Cutler main eventing Rampage. I’m pretty sure the weaker links in ROH 2004-2008 weren’t main eventing / headlining shows. AEW has some really talented wrestlers, surrounded by lots of dead weight. They could have the more “elite” wrestlers main eventing and utilizing their tv time, but they choose to spread it out. Some may like it, others not.

In terms of botching… yes every company has botches, BUT… what I’ve noticed is it happens about 3-4 times more often in aew than any other major promotion. Past of present. It doesn’t need to be this way, BUT that’s because they have such a large roster, with many not having enough years of training, OR trying to do too much.

Agree to disagree. I still like AEW. It’s kind of like PWG on a massive budget. TK seems like a intelligent dude, so I’m interested to see where they go in the future. If the wheels fall off, we’ll know why.

[famicommander]

AEW botches a ton but anyone who thinks they're the botchiest promotion has not watched nearly enough AAA.

[Shanahan]

AEW is benefiting from WWE being the drizzling shits & NJPW being destroyed by Covid. If WWE was just decent like it was from 2012-2014 & NJPW were back to normal people would see the major issues with AEW. This week's Dynamite & Rampage were really shitty shows yet you have people on social media talking about how awesome it was.

[supersonic]

AEW is benefiting from WWE being the drizzling shits & NJPW being destroyed by Covid. If WWE was just decent like it was from 2012-2014 & NJPW were back to normal people would see the major issues with AEW. This week's Dynamite & Rampage were really shitty shows yet you have people on social media talking about how awesome it was.

Anyone who complains about WWE from the period spanning from WM28 to WM30 conveniently forgets how much the Shield, Punk, and Danielson were the absolute backbone at that time in terms of workrate and crowd connections, with the likes of Sheamus, Christian, Cesaro, and Alberto also bringing the workrate goods. There was also the undeniable star power of Cena on top with the occassional help from Dwayne, HHH, Lesnar, and Taker.

Once you removed Punk PLUS Danielson PLUS the Shield act, you saw what it turned into, culminating at the 2015 Rumble in Philly.

AEW is definitely benefiting from such a low bar from the other major leagues of the industry. As flawed as Omega is as a personality for the top spot, he's Hulk Hogan or Terry Funk when compared to the amateur personality that is Ospreay.

[DougN]

AEW has had Brock Anderson (in like his 2nd match) main eventing Dynamite, and Brandon Cutler main eventing Rampage. I’m pretty sure the weaker links in ROH 2004-2008 weren’t main eventing / headlining shows. AEW has some really talented wrestlers, surrounded by lots of dead weight. They could have the more “elite” wrestlers main eventing and utilizing their tv time, but they choose to spread it out. Some may like it, others not.

In terms of botching… yes every company has botches, BUT… what I’ve noticed is it happens about 3-4 times more often in aew than any other major promotion. Past of present. It doesn’t need to be this way, BUT that’s because they have such a large roster, with many not having enough years of training, OR trying to do too much.

Agree to disagree. I still like AEW. It’s kind of like PWG on a massive budget. TK seems like a intelligent dude, so I’m interested to see where they go in the future. If the wheels fall off, we’ll know why.

I don't even know how to unpack complaining about Brock Anderson and Brandon Cutler main eventing two shows. Like seriously, you put those facts up there without any context, and yeah, it's stupid. But then you have the context... Brock Anderson main evented Dynamite in a squash match where he lost to Malakai Black, a guy they are clearly strapping a rocket too. Brandon Cutler main evented TEAMING WITH THE WORLD CHAMPION OF THE PROMOTION against THE GUY WHO IS CHALLENGING FOR SAID BELT AT THE PPV and Kazarian, who Cutler has been in a storyline with.

You might have a leg to stand on with Brock Anderson, if we throw context completely out of the window. But Brandon Cutler is the flunky of the top heel group in AEW who was in a match that's building the program for the title match on the PPV. What in the hell kind of point are you trying to make there except "haha, Brandon Cutler main evented?" You know Prince Nana main evented more ROH shows AS A WRESTLER than Brandon Cutler has main evented AEW TV, right?

And people keep bringing up the botches. What on earth are you guys talking about 3-4 times more than any other promotion? WWE has botches constantly. Impact has botches constantly. Even prime ROH had botches CONSTANTLY, many of them became iconic moments or part of storylines.

[Montana]

What's there to explain. Brock Anderson a guy who's basically still in training; main eventing your #1 show in a squash match. Then Brendan Cutler; a guy who basically a manager / part time jobber in the main event. AEW has way too much dead weight. Instead of getting main events like OMega vs. M. Black; we get stuff like that. I get not every show will have a big main event; but again, it goes back to them having TOO big of roster; and too many people that don't deserve the TV time; in their roles/experience.

In my opinion; this is part of what's holding AEW back from being great.

Botches...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np3dpuuumvQ

These videos keep getting posted ; and AEW keeps flagging them down (or angry AEW fans). This is like part of 1 of 3. So there is literally hours of content of just AEW botching moving. Luckily they are moving into a studio soon; and hopefully can do some quality control on their content.

[DougN]

What's there to explain. Brock Anderson a guy who's basically still in training; main eventing your #1 show in a squash match. Then Brendan Cutler; a guy who basically a manager / part time jobber in the main event. AEW has way too much dead weight. Instead of getting main events like OMega vs. M. Black; we get stuff like that. I get not every show will have a big main event; but again, it goes back to them having TOO big of roster; and too many people that don't deserve the TV time; in their roles/experience.

In my opinion; this is part of what's holding AEW back from being great.

Botches...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np3dpuuumvQ

These videos keep getting posted ; and AEW keeps flagging them down (or angry AEW fans). This is like part of 1 of 3. So there is literally hours of content of just AEW botching moving. Luckily they are moving into a studio soon; and hopefully can do some quality control on their content.

What do you mean what's there to explain? You're complaining about Brandon Cutler main eventing when I bet you never once said anything cross about Prince Nana main eventing in ROH. You missed my point already when you called Brandon Cutler "basically a manager" when Prince Nana WAS A MANAGER IN TWO HIGH PROFILE MAIN EVENTS. So by your logic, prime ROH had a lot of dead weight too. Twice as much since AEW just had "basically a a manager" main event and ROH had a full blown manager main event twice. Cool. Glad we're on the same page.

I'm watching that botch video now. It's thirty minutes so I won't be able to watch all of it today, but from the first five minutes, there were at least 10 spots that if you consider to be a botch, would make WWE 10x worse. The Red Velvet splash where she overshot her opponent -- that's practically every single WWE dive. The Hangman Page splash where he lands funky -- that's any Nia Jax match in history. I mean, again, I feel like people watch AEW and just turn off the brain for what has happened in every major company. There were SAT matches with more botches than this video. There were Jack Evans matches where he would almost miss his opponents. I don't want to turn this in to a whataboutism, but when you're complaining about AEW having botches and literally every other company has them, some even worse, it's a case of being blinded by hatred or ignorance or both.

[ICHIFUJI]

As TNT airs AEW about 100/year. 1or2 no-good main event is not strange.
Promotion 100 show/year have 30 or 40.

[Montana]

What's there to explain. Brock Anderson a guy who's basically still in training; main eventing your #1 show in a squash match. Then Brendan Cutler; a guy who basically a manager / part time jobber in the main event. AEW has way too much dead weight. Instead of getting main events like OMega vs. M. Black; we get stuff like that. I get not every show will have a big main event; but again, it goes back to them having TOO big of roster; and too many people that don't deserve the TV time; in their roles/experience.

In my opinion; this is part of what's holding AEW back from being great.

Botches...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np3dpuuumvQ

These videos keep getting posted ; and AEW keeps flagging them down (or angry AEW fans). This is like part of 1 of 3. So there is literally hours of content of just AEW botching moving. Luckily they are moving into a studio soon; and hopefully can do some quality control on their content.

What do you mean what's there to explain? You're complaining about Brandon Cutler main eventing when I bet you never once said anything cross about Prince Nana main eventing in ROH. You missed my point already when you called Brandon Cutler "basically a manager" when Prince Nana WAS A MANAGER IN TWO HIGH PROFILE MAIN EVENTS. So by your logic, prime ROH had a lot of dead weight too. Twice as much since AEW just had "basically a a manager" main event and ROH had a full blown manager main event twice. Cool. Glad we're on the same page.

I'm watching that botch video now. It's thirty minutes so I won't be able to watch all of it today, but from the first five minutes, there were at least 10 spots that if you consider to be a botch, would make WWE 10x worse. The Red Velvet splash where she overshot her opponent -- that's practically every single WWE dive. The Hangman Page splash where he lands funky -- that's any Nia Jax match in history. I mean, again, I feel like people watch AEW and just turn off the brain for what has happened in every major company. There were SAT matches with more botches than this video. There were Jack Evans matches where he would almost miss his opponents. I don't want to turn this in to a whataboutism, but when you're complaining about AEW having botches and literally every other company has them, some even worse, it's a case of being blinded by hatred or ignorance or both.

Not to argue with you... i'm just giving my opinion, and how i see it. I just took this week an an example; but i'm sure there's plenty of other weeks in the past year with lackluster AEW main events. I only recall Nana in like 1 main event; but if you say two... sure. I dont see ROH and AEW the same way you do.

Again, all promotions/wrestlers botch, but the frequency is that much higher in AEW from what i've noticed. AEW also does a more stunt-heavy promotion. I just hope they can avoid major injuries in the future. With getting more trained experiences wrestlers like Miro, Andrade, Black, etc; i'd hope they reduce some of the lesser talented roster members; but they seem to show no signs of using that talent less.

[DougN]

Not to argue with you... i'm just giving my opinion, and how i see it. I just took this week an an example; but i'm sure there's plenty of other weeks in the past year with lackluster AEW main events. I only recall Nana in like 1 main event; but if you say two... sure. I dont see ROH and AEW the same way you do.

Again, all promotions/wrestlers botch, but the frequency is that much higher in AEW from what i've noticed. AEW also does a more stunt-heavy promotion. I just hope they can avoid major injuries in the future. With getting more trained experiences wrestlers like Miro, Andrade, Black, etc; i'd hope they reduce some of the lesser talented roster members; but they seem to show no signs of using that talent less.

I understand that you're just giving your opinion and what I say is not going to change your mind. But hopefully you think more about your criticisms for AEW and why you're able to overlook them in something like ROH and not in AEW.

Prince Nana main evented Vendetta 2005 and Steel Cage Warfare 2005. Both were 8 men tag matches, but that's context and if we're going the context route, I would still say Brandon Cutler main eventing with Kenny Omega, the world champion and top star of AEW, is more excusable than Prince Nana. Brandon Cutler is more akin to Japanese booking where an older veteran or young lion will team with a main event star to eat the pin. And again, let me be clear -- I have no issue with those Prince Nana main events. But if we're throwing AEW under the bus for Cutler, let's throw prime ROH under the bus then too.

If we're going to go deeper too, I think criticizing Brandon Cutler for main eventing 1 event out of 74 for AEW in 2021 is weak when Prince Nana main evented 2 of 34 shows for ROH in 2005.

And again, I don't feel that there's a higher frequency of botches in AEW. If the video you showed me is evidence there is (and if you're not saying that, then excuse me and I apologize), then we're just splitting hairs. Again, half of the botches I saw were of people mis-judging dives by either undershoot or overshooting. And if that's the case, then fuck Bobby Eaton.

https://twitter.com/NINaylor/status/1432103543759151105

He practically missed his opponent here. He must be added to this video!

Stunt-heavy promotion I feel IS a fair assessment, but it's also dangerously close to calling them spot monkeys and again, what did we think prime ROH was? They added a platform to a cage so people could flip more.

It feels like the vast problem is with stuff that happens on Dark and Dark: Elevation, shows that are C and D level by design and by name. You're complaining these people don't have experience -- where do you want them to get experience? Especially in the past year when you couldn't run house shows. WWE has proven over the past 7 years that keeping people away from live matches is the mistake so again, what do you want them to do?

I'm not trying to pick fights. I'm not trying to change your opinion on whether or not AEW Is good. Only you can do that. But again, I hope you realize that most of your arguments fall apart so maybe the problem is not with what AEW is doing and maybe it's what your preconceived ideas of wrestling are.

(And for the record, a lot of these criticisms were thrown at ROH back in the day, ESPECIALLY the inexperienced guys just flipping badly all over the place.)

[DougN]

Also, I feel like this is worse than anything in that video:

https://twitter.com/ZinfamousHD/status/ ... 6092216340

[Reaper G]

Prince Nana main evented Vendetta 2005 and Steel Cage Warfare 2005. Both were 8 men tag matches, but that's context and if we're going the context route, I would still say Brandon Cutler main eventing with Kenny Omega, the world champion and top star of AEW, is more excusable than Prince Nana. Brandon Cutler is more akin to Japanese booking where an older veteran or young lion will team with a main event star to eat the pin. And again, let me be clear -- I have no issue with those Prince Nana main events. But if we're throwing AEW under the bus for Cutler, let's throw prime ROH under the bus then too.

If we're going to go deeper too, I think criticizing Brandon Cutler for main eventing 1 event out of 74 for AEW in 2021 is weak when Prince Nana main evented 2 of 34 shows for ROH in 2005.

The way I see it, Brandon Cutler main-eventing as Omega's partner would be like Vincent teaming with Hollywood Hogan in WCW.

[Shanahan]

Both shows last week were pretty fucking bad. I wouldn't mind the Brock or Cutler main eventing if the rest of the show was awesome. Sadly, it was wasn't. It was filled with bad matches, (Hayter/Velvet) more jobbers/squash matches with Gunn Club (wtf),The Factory (boring as shit) & Wingmen (Entertaining guys but all they have done this summer is be badly jobbed out) all being featured in 9pm hour. It's like Tony thought "We got Lucha Bros tag and Punk Promo..we good...let negative 1 book the rest"

[DougN]

Both shows last week were pretty fucking bad. I wouldn't mind the Brock or Cutler main eventing if the rest of the show was awesome. Sadly, it was wasn't. It was filled with bad matches, (Hayter/Velvet) more jobbers/squash matches with Gunn Club (wtf),The Factory (boring as shit) & Wingmen (Entertaining guys but all they have done this summer is be badly jobbed out) all being featured in 9pm hour. It's like Tony thought "We got Lucha Bros tag and Punk Promo..we good...let negative 1 book the rest"

I really don't see how Rampage last week was bad. Jurassic Express and Lucha Bros had a good match and the main event was fine. Bunny and Tay Conti wasn't bad. It was a good hour TV show.

Dynamite was weak. It just was. There were high points and then just a lot of filler. But they've already said that they had to scrap one match due to COVID and I think maybe a segment too. So it's not like Tony just threw shit at the wall and said deal with it.

[Shanahan]

Both shows last week were pretty fucking bad. I wouldn't mind the Brock or Cutler main eventing if the rest of the show was awesome. Sadly, it was wasn't. It was filled with bad matches, (Hayter/Velvet) more jobbers/squash matches with Gunn Club (wtf),The Factory (boring as shit) & Wingmen (Entertaining guys but all they have done this summer is be badly jobbed out) all being featured in 9pm hour. It's like Tony thought "We got Lucha Bros tag and Punk Promo..we good...let negative 1 book the rest"

I really don't see how Rampage last week was bad. Jurassic Express and Lucha Bros had a good match and the main event was fine. Bunny and Tay Conti wasn't bad. It was a good hour TV show.

Dynamite was weak. It just was. There were high points and then just a lot of filler. But they've already said that they had to scrap one match due to COVID and I think maybe a segment too. So it's not like Tony just threw shit at the wall and said deal with it.

Tag match was good, nothing amazing. Too bad Camera and Commentary focused too much on the Greek Freak. It was 10 mins of TV time. The other 50 mins was below average matches, boring segments and that means it sucked. It was the 3rd episode of Rampage leading up to the biggest PPV they have ever had. Tony has stated Rampage won't be the B Show, it will be like Dynamite. They popped a huge rating last week with Punk and gave nobody a real reason to watch this. The ratings were back down to 722k. Why the fuck wouldn't you just go balls to the wall last week and this week to try and keep those 400k people leading to the PPV. AEW seems like they are content which is the death of a wrestling company. Fans can realize it. Last week was a real bad week for them. Hope they learned their lesson.

BTW, i'm not a hater. I watch all 4 shows,BTE,Sammy's dumb vlog & i've bought every single PPV.

[DougN]

No matter what they did last week though, they were going to be down unless Danielson debuted or they had Punk wrestle, both of which would make no sense. The main event was hardly below average, but that's my opinion vs yours and it's not like one of us is right.

I just don't buy that last week was such a bad mark for them, especially when Dynamite was shuffled around due to COVID. And this week's Dynamite has a good lineup.

Also, Sammy's vlog > BTE, at least the past few months

[DougN]

I thought tonight's episode was really good, almost great. Nothing was actively bad, but I didn't care about the Gunn Club thing at all. The ending segment was good, but definitely not as polished as you would see in WWE. The camera angles were off and the show went off air at a weird time. But it was a different ending and was kind of good. Matt (or Nick?) hitting superkicks into the corner over and over again was great.

[roacheyyy]

Loved this episode. Spewing Pac vs Andrade is off for All Out