AEW Discussion

[supersonic]

I think generally speaking, if you don't have an ego yourself, you won't clash with Punk's ego. He's always gotten along fine with the likes of New Day, Sting, Joe, Foley, Steamboat, Danielson, etc. (And honestly, I sit astonished in retrospect that Punk and Aries had such great chemistry and never clashed.)

[Montana]

I think generally speaking, if you don't have an ego yourself, you won't clash with Punk's ego. He's always gotten along fine with the likes of New Day, Sting, Joe, Foley, Steamboat, Danielson, etc. (And honestly, I sit astonished in retrospect that Punk and Aries had such great chemistry and never clashed.)

So CM Punk gets along with SOME people backstage? So what... It's not everyone job to have to walk on egg shells around Punk. As a professional, you handle yourself with respect. As a leader, you lead by example. If someone doesn't want your advice; don't give to them; and give it to someone that will listen. Clearly he views himself as a "big deal" and yet lacks the maturity and focus to put the business ahead of himself.

Mind games aside; his body isn't ready to be champion. His age, his footing, i don't feel like he's gotten himself ready physically yet; to be at the peak of the company. It's not easy to take 7 years off; come back and perform at a high level. It takes time to get back there. I fully believe that's why Punk was wrestling mid-level guys, getting his legs back to start.... they just pulled the trigger too soon.

[indyfan]

Yeah agree 100 percent with Montana.

This is on Punk and Punk alone. He flippped out. Not Page, not the Bucks, not Cabana abd not Omega. .

His ego is out of control. Was he defending himself....sure i guess he was. but that all could of been handled backstage. He did it during the scrum because he knew nothing was going to stop him. Young guys not taking advice isnt a real reason to act like he did. Pages comments were rebuttalled on air by Punk. he dragged the situation even more.

he also clearly made Tony look like an idiot.

Hell Punk even said " im trying to run a business here"

Him getting fired would be fucking amazing because clearly he thinks hes untouchable.

[DougN]

That's not the narrative here, guys! The narrative is that The Elite are whiny babies who screwed over ROH and NJPW in forming a new company that sucks even when it's good!

Get with it. Come on.

[tigermask7.0]

Trampoline Cowboys vs. The Real Wrestlers.


P.S. AEW will be better off for this C.M. Punk shoot. Ever since Cody left, there hasn't been an adult (with true wrestling business sense) in the Room.
#bernardthebusinessbear

[supersonic]

It was best for both AEW and Cody to not renew his contract, at least on-screen. Whether it was Punk or the other EVPs that politicked him out, the bottom line is that since I started watching (Punk/Danielson coming in), Cody's creative was mediocre at best, fucking dreadful at worst. He didn't show ANY of the acclaimed storytelling that I was very much aware of in 2019-20.

I had EXTREMELY high expectations for Cody when I jumped on the bandwagon. I wanted him in programs against Moxley, Punk, Danielson, even Miro since they've never worked together. After hearing about how hot the MJF program had been in the past, I hoped they could boomerang back to each other and bring that some really hot, emotionally satisfying closure. What we got from him instead in his last 6 months or so was a stubbornly incoherent mess.

He can't blame Punk or the EVPs for that Full Gear tag match being a complete waste of 15 minutes of PPV real estate. He can't blame them for his failure to rub off some star power on PAC as the tag partner.

He can't blame them for that Gooker of the Year contender segment that closed out Brandi's run either - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGL4TelhIDU

Cody leaving opened up more weekly TV real estate for others, while also giving him the fresh coat of paint and beloved babyface treatment he apparently craved, an educated assumption I'm making since he never went in the direction that the wind was blowing last year and just turn heel.

[Montana]

The story lines or angles they put together from 2019-2021 WITH CODY were immensely better than 2022. Can't say that's 100% Cody; but it feels like he got it; and balanced out the Bucks/Omega enough. In 2022; booking, story lines, and angles have been poor at best. It's been a complete mess. Again, not sure how much of that is the lack of Cody; but here nor there; the ratings and story lines steadily declined once Cody left.

The other thing that AEW hasn't really figured out ; is WHO will put over new stars like Cody did for MJF, Darby Allin, Kingston, Ricky Starks, Sammy Guevara. They been using Danielson for that; and he's lost any/all momentum and not great for one of your highest paid wrestlers.

In my opinion; AEW needs to refocus. Can't put over everyone. Don't need a roster of 200 for 3 hours of TV. Hate to say it; but WWE is booking circles around AEW at the moment. They are hitting on most all cylinders now. It's not all HHH; but i think he helped tighten what needed fixing.

[DougN]

There was a decline in AEW since Cody left, but I still think it's less about Cody and more about AEW being overloaded while also over-relying on the same people. AEW booking just has not been great this year. Literally all the belts mean less and there's few, if any, strong champions.

I think the thing of "WHO will put over new stars" is really, really interesting. I hadn't thought of that before and it's perfect. You've got Danielson, but Danielson is a new commodity and shouldn't be that way. He was also used that way in WWE so the novelty isn't there.

Jericho should be moving into this position. He doesn't have to lose all the time, but you should pick 2-3 guys that he makes in a year.

AEW does need to refocus. I'll disagree that WWE is booking circles around AEW -- AEW is still the best promotion, in-ring and storyline wise. BUT WWE has inched way closer than they were months ago and because of this, they feel hotter. Triple H also has way more goodwill right now than Tony Khan and that goes a LONG way.

[tigermask7.0]

In the next handful of day we are going to find our what AEW is made of.

Waiting to see how Grand Slam leads into Battle of The Belt IV and Full Gear.

[DougN]

Jesus Christ, being an AEW fan is exhausting.

[supersonic]

I've been too busy traveling to keep this section updated, but I love the tabloid value that this federation is providing now. Sure, I'd love for Tony Khan to start acting like an alpha male instead of a little passive-aggressive bitch who showed up at his biggest show of the year dressed up like he was clocked in to work a shift at Gamestop, but I'll happily take this generation's LOLWCW and LOLTNA since the lack of Punk and the meaningful BTE stars has taken so much of the sparkling swagger away from the TV. Moxley, Jericho, Page, MJF, and and Danielson just aren't stepping up enough to compensate. The "new blood" stars being chosen to get more real estate TV time pale to others who have proven that they can tap into something really special with the audience like Kingston and Cassidy.

That's right - while Punk leans far more into the qualities that are visceral and emotionally meaningful, and as much as he exposed for the past year with his contributions of how one-dimensional and adolescent the BTE stars tend to be, the lack of those BTE stars has been objectively worse and their presence is missed just as much as Punk's. I'll take their spotfests and business-exposing remarks about star ratings over Jericho's Monday Night Raw style segments any day, twice on Sunday. (Don't get me started on how much of a soyboy Garcia got turned into overnight after the 2/3 falls match either, a fucking horrendous slap to the continuity that saw him being a cocky alpha motherfucker throughout the summer.)

[DougN]

Not sure which of us had their time wasted more here -- you by typing that up or me by reading it. But thank you.

[supersonic]

Not sure which of us had their time wasted more here -- you by typing that up or me by reading it. But thank you.

I don't give a shit anymore about expressing myself in a way that is palatable to AEW's "Day 1" portion of the consumer base considering that they tend to enable the apparent company ethos that it's acceptable to be lacking in rugged and polished qualities amongst the roster.

[DougN]

Love how the stance you take is "I don't care how I express myself" when you literally just used "alpha male" and "soyboy" in a deranged rant two days ago.

If we want to critique AEW, I'm all for it, but your criticisms are rooted in a vested interest in their downfall and always come back to a decry on the Elite or the "soft" portrayal of matches, which ignores that both led to the high mark that the company is now slipping from.

[supersonic]

There's a clear ceiling to the popularity metrics for the soyboy energy that this federation has; just like WWE, the money is being found in pleasing the corporate TV execs and producing a greater quantity of content rather than improving its quality through coherency, narrative-building, and allowing more "rough-around-the-edges" performers with high charisma like Punk to have greater influence.

With that said, Jericho COULD be that rough-around-the-edge, highly charismatic character and completely get the audience that Punk drew in to stop feeling detached this federation. He absolutely proved that in the late 2000s by drawing elements from Javier Bardem's performance in No Country For Old Men; this resulted in him earning Wrestler of the Year for 2008 (despite the nearly perfect creative that was the HBK program not drawing signficantly). Punk's void could also be filled in a different direction; like ROH 2005, go the Danielson route, having him hold a singles title and blazing through a who's who of challengers for a lengthy period, adding more and more layers of "bad motherfucker" energy with each victory.

Instead, we get this heavyhanded Jericho influence of "sports-entertainment" in the vein of mid-2010s WWE, when this federation at its roots is inherently supposed to be a legitimate alternative to the product produced by Vince McMahon, Kevin Dunn, and Brother Love. (I'm of the belief All In unlikely happens if the 2014 and 2015 Royal Rumbles aren't disastrously pushed back on by the fans.) Moxley also is left to his own devices, allowed by Tony Khan to wear low-rent indy attire not suitable for major league prime time TV and often working matches that don't show a very high level of major league psychology either (such as bleeding in more matches than necessary this year, completely ignoring how that dynamic gets over via the "less is more" mentality.) While this is of course an improvement over the mustard-squirting shit he was booked to be as Dean Ambrose, it's nowhere near the level of expectation I had for him should he ever get a rocket strapped to him without Vince and crew weighing him down with their lowest common denominator vision.

Overall, this federation feels psychologically undisciplined more than anything else. A roster full of guys who wanna take the shortcut of doing flashy moves in order to get GIF buzz on Twitter, rather than going the organic route of getting over by developing persona nuances and adding variety beyond comedy and high spots action. A roster full of guys who care more about one of their buddies being present at the workplace, instead of swallowing their immature pride and understanding that more important for the short and long-term is the cranky motherfucker that had been a major headliner on the indies before them and on the highest level in WWE, and that he has plenty to give to help the company in terms of business and as a creative visionary,

Ditto for the fans who enable this kind of attitude, wanting the roster to all be friends and get along. It's obvious that these particular viewers didn't grow up on Bret, they didn't grow up on Vader, they didn't grow up on the nWo and DX, they didn't grow up on Kobashi, they didn't grow up on Benoit, they didn't grow up on ROH vs. CZW. They have absolutely no understanding that a business that is about portraying a combat sport is supposed to be performed and presented in such a way that is HIGHLY competitive, often to such a degree that the performers develop an animosity that is testy, heated, and viscerally charging.

So congrats on getting this far with the formula. But the actions of the company, its roster, and many of its customers since the off-screen events that took place after All Out went off the air prove that stepping out of the comfort zone appears to be not just resisted, but completely out of the question. And that WILL keep the popularity metrics at a plateau as long as that comfort zone is clung on to so desperately.

The biggest marks are no longer in the seats (especially so when looking at this federation's attendance in recent months). As many have said, they can be found in the locker room, starting at the very top with the showrunner.

[DougN]

I'm not here to argue anything you stated because it's just the same thing you've previously regurgitated with no clear sense of logic other than "me no like so me think bad." But my question is: do you actually watch AEW and/or WWE? And how frequently?

1 of 3 things can be true:

1. You watch AEW regularly despite hating it.
2. You read results/recaps of AEW and see some highlights.
3. You don't watch anything.

If it's #1, then why? Why are you watching something you hate? Just so you can bitch about it?

If it's #2, then you're missing some nuance. I will argue that this is the best of the three options, but this is still flawed. If you're just reading things or catching the highlights, then you're not really in the position to say what works and what doesn't, ESPECIALLY when the company was hitting a creative and commercial stride doing the same things that you lambast here.

If it's #3, then you're just full of shit.

And the reason I ask all of this and say all of this is because you frame yourself under this "lapsed" moniker... which means that you don't watch. And if you don't watch, that's fine, but why do you feel the need to then write 700 words on why you don't like what you don't watch? None of this makes any sense. It'd be completely different if, on your podcast (which I do not listen to), you were asked a question about AEW and said "based on what I've seen.... blah blah blah soyboy blah blah blah marks blah blah BTE hurt my feelings blah blah blah." That's totally fair and maybe you DO do that. Again, I don't listen so I don't know, but in theory, that's fine. You have your own medium about your own thing and when the subject of AEW comes up, you answer. No problem. But this is supposed to be a thread of people discussing AEW and it's mostly just you coming in to shit on something that you hate and continue to watch (god knows why) or don't watch or watch in a truncated version. Granted, it's not a highly active thread or anything, but still.

Ultimately, it seems like this is either an extreme case of the zeitgeist forcing people to have opinions on things (though, unprompted for you here...) or you just hate the concept of AEW so much you have to shit on it whenever you can. Your post history seems to point to the latter in that scenario.

I'll frame it differently. I don't like the Fast movies. I've seen 2, maybe parts of a third, and none of it is appealing to me. I've since seen highlights or short clips posted on Reddit or social media of the newer films which seem to indicate that my position hasn't change, but I also know that a 10 second clip is not representative of a 2-hour movie. And I can read the recap on Wikipedia, but also know that reading cliff notes on a movie is not exactly the way to tell if a movie is good or not. I may see someone post about Fast movies on Facebook or Twitter, or maybe on a forum or Reddit thread somewhere. Why should I feel the need to go in there and shit on something I don't like and don't watch? It's not like the Fast series ever held my attention. It's clearly not for me and it's clearly for a set of other people. So why does it hurt that people enjoy something that I don't?

And to clarify, I think AEW has a lot of problems and has not been as good in 2022 as it was in 2021 or maybe even 2020, but it's less about storylines and how wrestlers portray themselves and more about a bloated roster that still features extensive cameos, an over-reliance on titles, never-ending feuds, and people who just disappear from TV without no explanation. All of which has gotten 10000% worse over the past year. None of it is how the product isn't "masculine" like wrestling should be, or whatever incel rhetoric you dance around in your ramblings.

[supersonic]

Consider this a venting spot and I've got more long-form response to this. I appreciate someone giving a shit enough to bother talking through this without being an overly attached Kool-Aid drinker, as I don't think the "Since Day One" audience fully grasps the kind of product that the Punk/Danielson audience expected once they were brought in. I'm saving long-form in draft mode for later.

[DougN]

The fact that you need to "vent" is still troublesome because it points to you just wanting to shit on something people enjoy... because it doesn't fit your idea of pro wrestling could/should be. And that's more troubling than the first viable alternative in 20 years.

[supersonic]

Not my problem if it rubs other the wrong way at all. Let's not forget that just because I'm applying strong-willed scrutiny (much like Punk was obviously doing), it doesn't mean that I'm a "hate-watcher." Here's the temperature a year ago when this federation earned much more positivity than it has over the past half-year.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5810&p=197220#p197220

[DougN]

It's not about rubbing people the wrong way, it's about a lovely use of your time. And good side-step of the issue. So you do watch then? So you're not lapsed?

And again, I point to the biggest flaw in your criticism. Literally everything about AEW you hate was going on in that thread you posted and it was also the same in 2020. That's two years of the same "un-masculine" wrestling you lambast, or whatever buzzword you want to affix to it. So now, people are sour on the product or less excited in general. Clearly that means you were right all along, right? It can't be that other things are going on that made the company spin out of control. No, it has to be those goddamn BTE boys and their style of wrestling so you can get your potshots in over and over again.

Let's not forget who was the one gleefully tearing down The Elite in the wake of the gripebomb and Brawl Out. Two months removed though and the vast, vast, vast majority of fans side with The Elite in the situation and not Punk, including the AEW locker room and it seems a good portion of WWE's locker room as well.

But no, it's everyone else who must be wrong!