AEW Discussion

[Montana]

I think everyone's got good/decent points here. One big thing I want to mention though is how a lot of champions this year seem weaker AFTER being champ. Hangman does not feel special anymore. Thunder is doing better now, but was definitely having a weak run early on and I would still not call her reign strong overall. Both Sammy and Scorpio came out of the TNT debacle worse than they went in. I think there's been too much of a focus on already established stars this year like your Adam Coles and CM Punks and MJFs and Moxleys and Danielsons, et cetera, as opposed to giving quality time to Hangman and others. And I know that they are the star power of the show, but the show had also done some surprisingly good numbers before this max influx of stars came in last fall. There's definitely a way to service both without overlooking one.

The only thing I don't agree with is complaining about the dead weight. It's one thing to complain about Lethal and Dutt being given so much air time in a gimmick/storyline that's not really working, but to just say AEW has so much dead weight and that they have no potential to even add anything is just ridiculous. You're always going to need guys on the low end, and you also never know when those guys can move up the card. And I really struggle with the classification of 2.0 as dead weight when they are getting more and more over and beloved. You can personally not like them, but they've definitely moved themselves up from the jobber role they were in at the start. Now, does AEW follow-up on that? Who knows? But calling 2.0 dead weight is absurd.

One more point I would bring up. I just don't understand why there isn't more thought or effort put into Dark. I'm not saying everything needs to matter on that show -- it can be primarily squash matches -- but there needs to be some storylines that go between the shows and the show SHOULD have some title defenses most weeks, especially since AEW keeps rolling out more and more belts. Dark exists in a vacuum as opposed to Dynamite and Rampage and it doesn't need to be that way.

I think the biggest problem with the roster is that everyone is pushed, and then with the problem with that; is the follow up once the push is done. Or we'll push you for 3-6 months; but basically you end up in about the same spot you started. Best examples are guys like Darby Allin and Orange Cassidy. Darby's at least won the TNT title; but like he's hit his ceiling for about the past year. He's not going for the TV title or World title. Just in meaningless feuds to get to the next. Same with Orange Cassidy, you'd think he's won like every belt with the company based on how he's presented; but he hasn't won anything in AEW in 3 years. Or teams like Dark Order who are presented as a big deal, but never win on TV. Plus it's not like these characters have evolved that much either. Maybe that's nit picky, as AEW has done some good character work with some wrestlers... other just stay the same mostly.

Having a big roster is good; but at some point your giving up TV time to the Gunn Club/2.0/Sonjay, whomever ; instead of people like the Hangman, Miro, or the Young Bucks.

[DougN]

To be fair, Orange Cassidy was injured for a good amount of time. But definitely agree on the weird pushes. I don't think "everyone" is pushed, but if you said that before the influx of stars last year, I would have agreed. Less "everyone is pushed" and more "everyone has a direction." Now, there's very few people with actual directions.

I really don't mind giving TV time to Gunn Club and 2.0. What I hate is that Adam Cole was in a match or major segment every single week for months. That's the problem. I get that he was being built up, but it was still overkill. And I enjoy Adam Cole -- I just think AEW has relied too much on him in his time so far AND they're rehashing Undisputed Era stuff when we basically exhausted all angles of that in NXT the last several years.

The lack of TV time for Miro is abhorrent though. I do know AEW Is hush-hush on injuries -- an injury report might help alleviate these fears tbh.

[Wavelet Transform]

And I really struggle with the classification of 2.0 as dead weight when they are getting more and more over and beloved. You can personally not like them, but they've definitely moved themselves up from the jobber role they were in at the start. Now, does AEW follow-up on that? Who knows? But calling 2.0 dead weight is absurd.

They're clowns and if they're getting over (something I'd dispute - total silence for their promo in the arena last week), it's because Menard came up w/ an audience participation bit, the goofy pronunciation of "sports entertainers". They'll never have a great match, they'll never cut a great promo that makes you want to see them win / lose a match, and esp. for AEW standards, they're not good athletes. That makes them dead weight.

I do agree that a number of folks have come out of title reigns in worse shape. It's partly because there's a big divide between how the stars are presented and how everyone else, even those near the top of the card, are presented. When someone stops getting pyro because after they lose the belot, it sends a clear message. Same w/ stuff like Toni Storm's knockoff "Barracuda" theme.

There are bright spots. They're starting to move the Acclaimed up a bit. Jungle Boy should be ready for a singles run after the feud w/ Cage, assuming he wins. Starks also looks poised for a breakout.

[Wavelet Transform]

I really don't mind giving TV time to Gunn Club and 2.0. What I hate is that Adam Cole was in a match or major segment every single week for months. That's the problem. I get that he was being built up, but it was still overkill. And I enjoy Adam Cole -- I just think AEW has relied too much on him in his time so far AND they're rehashing Undisputed Era stuff when we basically exhausted all angles of that in NXT the last several years.

I think the week-to-week continuity was actually a positive. Right now, stories just stop and the people involved disappear from the screen. Ethan Page was on Dynamite a few weeks ago complaining about not getting TV time, then Stokely comes out and the strike up an alliance. I don't think Page has been on TV since. Why did they do this? It makes Page look dumb and Stokely look ineffectual. Did they explain why Page isn't (evidently) with ATT any longer? 2021 ROH TV had a similar problem. They'd shoot an angle w/ Dalton and then you wouldn't see him again for another 5 weeks.

The roster is big enough now that you could basically run it like a self-contained territory system. Cycle people out as their feuds are ending, give them a couple of months away, then bring them back when you need fresh faces. I'd prefer that to trying to push everyone all at the same time with everyone that's not a big money contract more or less getting lost in the shuffle (e.g., OC, Darby).

[DougN]

I agree, but there's a fine line between continuity and over-exposing and I think the latter is where AEW was at in February, March, and April.

Again though, they've got more than enough TV time to play with. The problem is they squander any potential for Dark.

[supersonic]

Tonight was a largely terrific exercise in securing WV as AEW territory (not that WWE ever made an effort to do so since WCW's demise) and I see the fans in the region being more than happy to travel to other fairly nearby markets. (Unlikely a coincidence that the Norfolk and Cincy returns weren't announced until during tonight's broadcast.)

The production snafus are fucking embarrassing, especially to end the broadcast with them.

[DougN]

I wouldn't even call it a production snafu. Production snafu to me means when the camera's miss things or when things are staged wrong.

Wrestlers in the ring went too long. That's all it is. Sucks that AEW is still having timing issues this late into the game, but it is what it is.

[Wavelet Transform]

Ospreay was spectacular on Wednesday. Amazing he's still as fast and explosive as he is after 10 years and multiple injuries. He also really carries himself like a star now. Seems to be putting together an all-time great body of work somewhat under-the-radar. I suppose NJPW will keep him for the forseeable future, but he'd be an outstanding addition to the AEW roster.

[roacheyyy]

Completely agree. Think he'd be a great top guy in AEW

[supersonic]

I'd be totally fine with Ospreay just being a workrate guy in the vein of Benoit or Cesaro if the best storyline he can do is having beta male message board arguments about whose performances get higher star ratings. I get Davey Richards try-hard vibes from him (and that was someone else that I always wanted to be all-rugged workrate, none of the forced showmanship/locker room leader attempt promos.)

No matter how much Sapolsky touted the ***** rating for Joe vs. Punk II, never once did either of those grown men tout about it during ROH promos, because it makes the business sound staged and they also were too mature to put such an over-emphasis on something like that.

[DougN]

Kind of with you there, except Ospreay is 10x the worker Davey is. Davey never felt organic to me as a singles -- he always felt like he was copying someone else, whether it be KENTA, Kawada, Benoit, or even Danielson at times. Ospreay, for better or worse, is a unique worker. Doesn't mean he's the best or the most unique, but he's not copying people flat-out like Davey was.

As far as touting the five star matches, there's a way to do it. If Joe and Punk had said, "we just put on a five star classic, let's go again," that's fine. But to go out there and say something along the lines of "no one has more five star matches than me" or anything... yeah, it's not as good. Bucks flirt with the line of what's good and what's not all the time, but it's also been part of their schtick for like 8 years now.

[Montana]

Not to take away how good Ospreay is .... but the 5 star match just isn't what it used to be. I haven't seen half of his 5 star matches; but if it's in line with the other 5 star matches i've seen this year; they aren't quite the revolutionary matches that got that "honor" in the past.

That being said, Ospreay is pretty awesome; and basically the next Omega. Any place he goes, he'll be a big deal.

[DougN]

The five star scale is broken. I'll believe that most of his matches are 5 stars. Not all, but again, that's opinion. But there is something to say about not remembering a five star match months later.

But this is also not anything new. It was the same with AJPW and AJW in the 90s. And it was the same when Meltzer first started giving out 5 stars left and right to G1 matches.

[Montana]

Sounds like AEW won’t renew Bobby Fish’s contract.

In other news, sounds like multiple wrestlers in AEW have asked for their release. This is a rumor and I don’t know who, but sounds like people are throwing out: Andrade, Malakai Black, Miro and even Bryan Danielson. Could be nothing, but maybe things are worse in AEW than folks are letting on.

It’s too bad, if this is true. Andrade makes complete sense with how he’s been used. He had a pretty cool character, he just never wrestles, and rarely has a big match. Same with Malakai, house of black has been pretty awesome, but they’ve done very little with them the past 3-4 months. Miro is just non-existent. Danielson is surprising, but again it’s a rumor so grain of salt. He’s basically in the Cody role, so maybe he doesn’t just want to put guys over.

It’s been amazing how the perception of AEW has changed the last 12 months.

[DougN]

Yeah, they've burned through their goodwill like crazy.

Part of me is happy about the Fish contract expiring... because it will force them to do something new and different with Cole and KOR. BUT why did we spend the majority of the year building up UE vs The Elite if you wouldn't even keep Fish long enough to do it? I get that Kenny was injured longer than expected and that Cole and KOR are now injured... but still. The storyline DOMINATED part of the TV in the early spring and it's kind of all for nothing.

Malakai is the source behind the rumor. Apparently he's been unhappy but has not legit asked for his release. I think it's a little wild they haven't had Malakai in a world title match by now. He would have been a perfect challenger for Hangman instead of doing Adam Cole a second time.

[supersonic]

Gimmicks like Malakai and the Field don't viscerally get over anymore. Undertaker would bomb if that gimmick debuted today even with the exact same performer at the exact same age. I don't wanna hear about their merch sales or stan fandoms - their matches have no substantial heat without doing some kind of spectacular move or gimmick stunt. I sat through a quite Minute Maid Park for Fiend vs. Danielson, when they were loud AF at many other times throughout the card.

Unless you're female, you get every opportunity as someone with prior WWE exposure to do whatever the fuck you want creatively. It's truly sink or swim largely based on your own ideas.

I absolutely detest Miro's booking, as well as Wardlow's. I don't know why they couldn't be clashing for the TNT title this weekend to give us a battle of more "sports-entertainment" style sirloin beefs, something different from the rest of the card and even from Kingston vs. Ishii.

[DougN]

The Fiend didn't get over because his matches were horrendous and there wasn't much you could do with him. Malakai is definitely over -- and he has great matches to boot.

Wardlow's booking is so bad. Three title defenses since July 6th. Couple that with Jade as TBS champ and the TV titles have been horrendously devalued while also being tied to rising stars. It's such a bad paradox to have.

[supersonic]

Black doesn't get any heat as a character despite being away from the WWE restrictor plates; his workrate is what gets the reactions. It's not the 1990s anymore, the business is far too evolved away from those kinds of characters ever gaining meaningful traction.

He's my biggest disappointment since jumping, as one of my biggest dream matches for WrestleMania a few years back was him against Balor both for the workrate and the dueling epic entrances.

[Wavelet Transform]

Gimmicks like Malakai and the Field don't viscerally get over anymore. Undertaker would bomb if that gimmick debuted today even with the exact same performer at the exact same age. I don't wanna hear about their merch sales or stan fandoms - their matches have no substantial heat without doing some kind of spectacular move or gimmick stunt. I sat through a quite Minute Maid Park for Fiend vs. Danielson, when they were loud AF at many other times throughout the card.

Unless you're female, you get every opportunity as someone with prior WWE exposure to do whatever the fuck you want creatively. It's truly sink or swim largely based on your own ideas.

I absolutely detest Miro's booking, as well as Wardlow's. I don't know why they couldn't be clashing for the TNT title this weekend to give us a battle of more "sports-entertainment" style sirloin beefs, something different from the rest of the card and even from Kingston vs. Ishii.

100%. Malakai's other problem is he's exceptionally one-dimensional. Every week it's the same vague, high school goth nonsense. Why is he feuding with Sting? Why does he never talk about why he wants to win matches or titles?

[Montana]

Looking forward to the show but wish there were 2-3 fewer matches on the card

However, i didn't like giving the belt to CM Punk, so quickly at the expense of Hangman. Yeah, he had it for 6 months; but it was also a 2+ years journey to get it, only to have 1 successful PPV title defense. Plus you got Hangman in his prime; for an aging Punk. Plus Punk winning the title; didn't have the same build up, as to when he won in ROH/WWE. In the match; Hangman showed why he's the current champ, and Punk showed why he shouldn't win the title. Now, i get maybe AEW needs a bit of a jolt... but don't think i would have booked Punk to win here. Maybe punk winning in a rematch down the road. But hey, is what it is; and i always say, it's not about how wins/losses, it's about the story... so we'll see. I assume we get heel punk too, at some point soon too.

Here's was my thoughts after Double or Nothing ; with Punk winning the belt. I'd say they've held up pretty well. Sure we didn't know he'd get injured , but who would have guess this would have gone so far south! I"m not sure if Punk can mentally handle wrestling anymore at this point. Punching EVP's , ranting at a media scrum about reporters, wrestlers, and everyone under the sun. It's really sad to see. Think TK needs to fire Punk; and maybe that's best for Punk too. Clearly he's hanging onto old grudges/baggage. Unfortunately what's probably best is removing Punk from the situation. I don't know him; but i've known similar people, in similar situations; they don't let things go and basically stubborn. (That said, Punk had some decent points too. Per Mark Twain, never argue with a fool, as onlookers can't tell who is who)

I also like how punk is taking full credit for their first million dollar gate, like they weren't heading in that direction too. Yet, doesn't take any responsibility for the ratings and buy rates falling.

Best of luck Tony. Feel bad he has to clean this mess up.