AEW Discussion

[Montana]

You really can't complain that AEW doesn't elevate it's young talent. If anything, they do it almost to a fault.

[DougN]

Yeah, they're constantly building for the future. The only problem is that they often time miss guys in their prime right now, like Andrade, PAC, and Malaki. They could benefit so much from Rampage being 90 minutes on another night.

[Mike0284]

https://twitter.com/AEW/status/1516940662838464512

[ICHIFUJI]

It's time to want Samoa Joe vs. KENTA?
No ROH titlematch ?

[Montana]

Should be some great wrestling on this show, but not sure if this really moved forward aew storylines/product. They already have more talent than they can use. If the PPV is 50$ do they think they’ll do well in PPV buys? Seems like an ideal show to launch a streaming service. Personally was hoping for an AEW streaming service or ROH tv plans, but glad the two are working together. Reminds of ROH’s war of the worlds, but like one mega show, but with dream matches with ROH legends.

[DougN]

I was also hoping for the streaming service. I'm curious about this show, but not overly excited. It's just the first show, but I would hope AEW doesn't lean into NJPW as much as ROH did because it became a huge crutch for ROH.

I also don't just want AEW v NJPW. Give me Naito and Andrade vs Jay White and Adam Cole. I'm down with that 1000%. Definitely need singles matches too, but I really don't care enough to see like United Empire vs Blackpool Combat Club.

[Montana]

Went to my first AEW show live, Blood and Guts/Dynamite which also had Rampage and Dark Elevation. I'll just give my overall thoughts on the show/experience.

I was surprised how full the arena was. THere wasn't many open seats at all. On TV they said 13K , which seems about right. They did have some sections roped off, which makes sense.

TK, did say they looked to bring a show or PPV back to Detroit.

The front row seats were extremely expensive , so sitting a bit higher up; gives it more of a WWE feel for me; than ROH. I like the smaller shows; and being close to the ring. I still had a good view, especially for the top of the cage & sammy fall.

I thought i'd enjoy Dark Elevation a bit more live... I did not. In a way, it hurt the show; as the crowd was fading by rampage. It was only like 45 minutes and 6 matches or so; but just as a live fan, you basically started the show with 6 squash matches. The crowd was ready for Dynamite.

Overall, i thought Dynamite and Rampage were good. I think i actually enjoyed Rampage a bit more; but both shows were good. Dynamite was mostly completely around the 1 hour blood and guts match. I didn't watch that back on TV , but seemed like a very good match live. lots of craziness. I'm not a huge fan of "blood" but i dont mind it. I don't love the marketing of "blood and guts" but ratings wise, it worked. The first hour of Dynamite was just OK, but it was a nice ramp up; compared to Dark Elevation.

Rampage was closer to what i wanted to see. I won't spoil too much on the Royal Rampage, but it was fun, and a good version of a royal rumble/battle royal. Probably a little better live than TV; as TV kept switching to the new wrestler coming to the ring. Liked the ending to the match. Plus the young bucks match live was fun too.

TK came out a few times to hype the crowd, apologize it took so long to come to Detroit. His yelling and passion is fun and appreciated.
He did say he planned for Rush/Andrade vs. Lucha Bros, which would have been an insane dream match; but since Fenix was sick, we got the royal rampage instead, which was also pretty cool.

All in all, it was about 4.5 hours of wrestling. While i enjoy the smaller shows; and not the arena shows as much I'd go back to Dynamite. Think the arena's work best for PPVs. The live experience was not that different than say WWE; but i think Dynamite focusing more on wrestling, and WWE has a bunch more interview/promos. Which is obvious based on their TV products.

[DougN]

Show's been better of late, but they need to really to up their game over the next few months. WWE is going to pull in a LOT of curious fans.

[Montana]

Went to AEW Rampage & Battle of the Belts... Here's some of my quick thoughts.

Attendance didn't look great live, maybe 2-3K, but thought it looked really good on TV. Good camerawork / selective seating i guess helps this. Several full rows empty, just off the floor. Merch is like 25$ a DVD or 35$ for a T-shirt; so not like any better deal than online. Went to Blood and Guts; and thought the seating in Grand Rapids was way better. Tickets were almost half the price; and i was 2x-3x closer.

They taped AEW Dark for the first hour. I'm sure i've said this numerous times about dark; but i just don't get the point, other than content. But like; it's not even good content; it's just quick couple minute squashes. It's not really developing the wrestlers. They had a couple OK/semi-normal matches at the end; but it's like at least let the wrestlers have some decent matches. 2-3 dark/squashes fine... but like 6-7 it makes for a slow start to the show. They did have a short/really good 6 women tag. Seems like a good way to use talent for dark.

They taped Battle of the Belts before Rampage. Wardlow was pretty over. Rosa/Hayter was a pretty solid match, and Claudio vs. Takeshita was great. Thought it was even better on TV. Probably rate it about 4.25-maybe 4.5.

Rampage Starts with Mox and Mance Warner. Good street fight brawl. 3.75. Was surprised how much offense Mance got it. Then Madison Rayne match was painfully quiet. It was literally so quiet people said stuff just to break the silence. Don't think ive been to a more dead match ever. Follow that up with a takeshita squash match, Then a pretty good tag street fight with Swerve/Lee vs. Woods/ Nese. Probably go 3.75 on that.

It was a fun show, easy to digest; but not a lot of meat on the bones. Claudio vs. Takeshita was easily match of the night. Felt like about 5 good matches; and 10 squash matches over about 4 hours. If dark was near to quality of rampage; it would have been a great show; but the first hour is kind of a downer. I was also surprised how many wrestlers were there; but didn't wrestle. Eddie Kingston did like a 1 minute crowd hype promo, Danhausen was backing up best friends (local home town guy) , Andrade/Rush taped a Promo live, The Acclaimed did a rap at the end, Dante Martin and Hook were backstage. That's just who i am aware of too. Meanwhile guys like Mance Warner who's never won a TV match is wrestling the champ; Josh Woods and Tony Nese who never won a tag match on TV; same with Lela Gray were in featured matches. The hollywood hunk got TV time; and cut 2 promos dissing Grand Rapids, they didnt show on TV. The matches were good (except the women's match) ; but just kinda odd booking, especially with several big names there. Rampage is clearly a B-show to Dynamite. I thought we may have gotten a little better Rampage with it being taped live; but pretty average i'd say. The Mox/Swerve matches were good though at least. While they have fun shows, I'd much prefer less dark matches, kind of quality over quantity. First time AEW was in grand rapids; and wonder if attendance goes up/down for future shows.

Guess it wasn't that quick for my thoughts. Let me know if you have any questions.

[Wavelet Transform]

They taped AEW Dark for the first hour. I'm sure i've said this numerous times about dark; but i just don't get the point, other than content. But like; it's not even good content; it's just quick couple minute squashes. It's not really developing the wrestlers. They had a couple OK/semi-normal matches at the end; but it's like at least let the wrestlers have some decent matches. 2-3 dark/squashes fine... but like 6-7 it makes for a slow start to the show. They did have a short/really good 6 women tag. Seems like a good way to use talent for dark.

Just got back from Quake at the Lake and completely agree. I found myself wondering who would watch Dark - it's nothing but 2-3 minute squash matches. It's ok live - moves quickly and it's fun to watch the wrestlers come out, but there's no reason to watch it on youtube. I don't see why they don't do feuds / promos on Dark. Would be a great way to get, e.g., the Varsity Blondes some experience in the ring and on the mic. Could also be an opportunity for others to learn to contribute to creative and take some of the load off of Tony.

In general, there's a big divide between the stars and everyone else on the roster. Crowd was way up for the coffin match, lucha tag, and main event, but lots of the roster struggles to get reactions. In that regard, I don't understand signings like Ari Davairi and Madison Rayne. Trustbusters is painfully generic and got 0 reaction from the crowd. Madison was supposed to be the babyface against Jade, but Jade's so obviously a major star that it's hard to root against her, esp. with someone who clearly isn't (and shouldn't be) winning. I'm sure part (most?) of it is for their expertise, but how many people like that do you need in a company?

The show overall was lots of fun and, despite some reservations about the booking, Dynamite / Rampage is easy an recommendation. The sheer volume of talent on the roster is remarkable and you'll almost certainly get at least 1 great match. Highly recommend seats that face the same direction as the hard cam.

[BurningHammer]

I haven’t stayed up to watch wrestling in the UK in probably a decade but the recent builds, feuds, character builds that have been developing have actually engaged me to want to tune and stay up especially last night and it didn’t disappoint. Thought generally everything it’s right time bar maybe the bucks and hangman as it just feels old hat right now.

[supersonic]

It's fucking inexcusable that after all of this summer's injuries and absences, the top mix that has remained (Moxley, Kingston, Jericho, Hangman, Allin, Wardlow, the Bucks) are not all absolutely molten-hot by default by this point.

The returns of Punk, Danielson, etc. are not the gravy - they're the fucking band-aids after a summer of haphazard booking from a guy that's showing potential signs of burnout a la Bischoff in late 1998, Heyman on TNN, and Sapolsky in late 2006.

[Reaper G]

They taped AEW Dark for the first hour. I'm sure i've said this numerous times about dark; but i just don't get the point, other than content. But like; it's not even good content; it's just quick couple minute squashes. It's not really developing the wrestlers. They had a couple OK/semi-normal matches at the end; but it's like at least let the wrestlers have some decent matches. 2-3 dark/squashes fine... but like 6-7 it makes for a slow start to the show. They did have a short/really good 6 women tag. Seems like a good way to use talent for dark.

Just got back from Quake at the Lake and completely agree. I found myself wondering who would watch Dark - it's nothing but 2-3 minute squash matches. It's ok live - moves quickly and it's fun to watch the wrestlers come out, but there's no reason to watch it on youtube. I don't see why they don't do feuds / promos on Dark. Would be a great way to get, e.g., the Varsity Blondes some experience in the ring and on the mic. Could also be an opportunity for others to learn to contribute to creative and take some of the load off of Tony.

In general, there's a big divide between the stars and everyone else on the roster. Crowd was way up for the coffin match, lucha tag, and main event, but lots of the roster struggles to get reactions. In that regard, I don't understand signings like Ari Davairi and Madison Rayne. Trustbusters is painfully generic and got 0 reaction from the crowd. Madison was supposed to be the babyface against Jade, but Jade's so obviously a major star that it's hard to root against her, esp. with someone who clearly isn't (and shouldn't be) winning. I'm sure part (most?) of it is for their expertise, but how many people like that do you need in a company?

The show overall was lots of fun and, despite some reservations about the booking, Dynamite / Rampage is easy an recommendation. The sheer volume of talent on the roster is remarkable and you'll almost certainly get at least 1 great match. Highly recommend seats that face the same direction as the hard cam.

Perhaps the most important reason to have Dark and Dark Elevation is for AEW's younger wrestlers to gain experience. One used to get those on house shows, but AEW doesn't appear to want to do that. But then, do they really need to be televised at all?

[Wavelet Transform]

Perhaps the most important reason to have Dark and Dark Elevation is for AEW's younger wrestlers to gain experience. One used to get those on house shows, but AEW doesn't appear to want to do that. But then, do they really need to be televised at all?

My point is that the experience of working Dark isn't useful. 2-3 minute squash matches don't do anything for them beyond the absolute basics of working for a televised company (do your pose facing the hard cam, hit your time limits, etc....). What a lot of the Dark crew (V. Blondes, Factory trainees, etc...) need is experience cutting promos, building feuds, and having good (i.e., competitive, longer than 3 minutes) matches to get them ready for TV. I think you could easily accomplish all that w/ Dark and make it vastly more interesting. What's the value of doing a 2 minute match when AEW never does them anywhere but Dark?

Also wanted to say that I was super impressed with Jericho last night. He's gotten himself in great shape and had an awesome, awesome match in the main event. No small feat for someone 51 years old. Really made me appreciate how great he is and how impressive his longevity and various reinventions are.

[BurningHammer]

It's fucking inexcusable that after all of this summer's injuries and absences, the top mix that has remained (Moxley, Kingston, Jericho, Hangman, Allin, Wardlow, the Bucks) are not all absolutely molten-hot by default by this point.

The returns of Punk, Danielson, etc. are not the gravy - they're the fucking band-aids after a summer of haphazard booking from a guy that's showing potential signs of burnout a la Bischoff in late 1998, Heyman on TNN, and Sapolsky in late 2006.

But what if the injuries caused the haphazard booking, I’m not saying there hasn’t been bad decisions for a while, taking Allin as a main point I think his partnership with Sting has actually hurt overall as it’s put him in matches and feuds that have really done nothing for him in the end. It’s really only now that Allin with his time with Brody that he feels like a burgeoning star. I hope they continue with him and House Of Black strongly as it’s the right mix, of not him and Starks feels like the way to go soon.

Right now I would say AEW is heading in the right direction with most people, I think Khan has learnt finally to streamline things with groups etc and he is starting to whittle people down and becoming more realistic and believable to an audience. Garcia, Yuta, Starks, Brody, Hobbs, Wardlow feels more like a star than before considering the crowd reaction.

[supersonic]

Anytime your storyline directions involves Lethal and Dutt beyond a single show, you're basically being pussyfoot around with. They don't make a splash.

I have as much "understanding" about the difficulty of overcoming an injury bug here as I did for WWE 7 years ago. You don't have a roster that deep and not be prepared at all times for "next man up." Like that loaded WWE roster several years back, there were too many top pieces still standing on the roster for it to have been so limp-dicked.

The lack of organic slow-burning to major moments, and the lack of keeping the foot on the gas when an act gets hot and/or a major angle takes place is yet another example. There's a third hour as well to milk the potential bandwagons and keep the top stories moving instead of just giving ring-time constantly to B-show talents who will never draw significant heat and/or a substantial dime.

I really wish Khan had the spine to have told Jericho "no, we're not doing the overbooked lampoon bullshit. Kingston is coming out of this fucking program as a killer, because we need him to be in that role right fucking now."

How about all those reps Jungle Boy got on the mic for the past year or so to get him ready for his big push finally? Oh yeah, the YouTube show's airtime instead had to go giving ring reps to future curtain-jerker jobbers instead of grooming him for the Christian turn. I'll so far as to say that Jungle Boy's current incarnation reminds of me Kidman during the infamous Hogan program.

I could keep going with this.

[Wavelet Transform]

Anytime your storyline directions involves Lethal and Dutt beyond a single show, you're basically being pussyfoot around with. They don't make a splash.

I have as much "understanding" about the difficulty of overcoming an injury bug here as I did for WWE 7 years ago. You don't have a roster that deep and not be prepared at all times for "next man up." Like that loaded WWE roster several years back, there were too many top pieces still standing on the roster for it to have been so limp-dicked.

The lack of organic slow-burning to major moments, and the lack of keeping the foot on the gas when an act gets hot and/or a major angle takes place is yet another example. There's a third hour as well to milk the potential bandwagons and keep the top stories moving instead of just giving ring-time constantly to B-show talents who will never draw significant heat and/or a substantial dime.

I really wish Khan had the spine to have told Jericho "no, we're not doing the overbooked lampoon bullshit. Kingston is coming out of this fucking program as a killer, because we need him to be in that role right fucking now."

How about all those reps Jungle Boy got on the mic for the past year or so to get him ready for his big push finally? Oh yeah, the YouTube show's airtime instead had to go giving ring reps to future curtain-jerker jobbers instead of grooming him for the Christian turn. I'll so far as to say that Jungle Boy's current incarnation reminds of me Kidman during the infamous Hogan program.

I could keep going with this.

All of this, but especially the paragraph on B-show talents. There's so much dead weight that adds nothing now and has no potential to ever add anything (though I wouldn't personally include Lethal): 2.0, Daivari, Madison Rayne, Fuego, Septentico, Luther, etc.... Giving substantial air time to Dutt and Daivari acting like cartoon villains is inexcusable.

[Montana]

A few thoughts,

Personally I've enjoyed Sonjay's antics, as he's more entertaining than ever in his career that i can recall, but i get it. You have such a wide roster, you don't need to focus on giving Sonjay airtime. I assume it's partially for the Indian market.

I agree the injury bug thing is just an excuse. They have such a wide roster; and so much future talent; we shouldn't even be talking about injuries. Half the injured guys weren't even in the company a year ago. It does feel like slowly the fan base is turning on Tony. I'm not entirely surprised; but also kinda like Supersonic said; it feels like he doesn't have his foot on the gas as much as he should.

I'm not sure if it's coincidence or not; but the booking has gone noticeably stale with the loss of Cody Rhodes. Maybe stale isn't the right word, but more of a lack of focus. Now, i think Forbidden door and purchasing ROH all happened in 2022; and took some focus away from core AEW. The Dynamites have been good, but nothing overly memorable. TK kinda spammed his big surprises as All Out 2022; but can't help but think ; holding off on them a bit would have helped. Claudio debuting at Forbidden Door was cool; but probably been as a Dynamite Debut.

What i hope; is that ROH gets it's own programming; and the two companies and focus on their own product and storyline. i THINK that should solve some issues. Completely agree with Wavelet; dark should feature teams like Varsity Blondes/Gunn Club; teams with potential; give them ring time, mic time, and storylines. Why not?!? The only thing i can fathom is waiting for more true TV time. The other thing that may help, if your going to run a Youtube show; maybe a weekly recap show like ROH week by week. (I loved that show... too little too late) But hype upcoming shows; storylines, and promotions. They could tie some stuff together; because they have SO MUCH going on , it's hard for even a hardcore fan to follow it all.

At this point, i'd hate to see AEW fail; especially with news of the Warner/Discovery merger. For those that don't know; Long story short, Discover exec's have been cutting cost on a lot of TV programing. (Maybe spending in other areas/DC comics/AEW?) Maybe that new HBO/Discovery app coming in 2023; will be the start of a long-term platform for AEW. Either way; i know a lot of AEW fans were hoping for a HUGE next TV deal; and i don't see that coming. I think the perfect situation for AEW; would be something like currently they are around 50M for 3 hours of TV; Maybe they get like 75-100M for 5 hours... obviously more money the better...but if they can squeeze more programming for more money ; that could be best for relaunching ROH and keeping AEW separate. Time will tell... but that will be very interesting over the next 6-9 months.

[Wavelet Transform]

Fair point on Sonjay and the Indian market.

I think two general issues have soured fans on Tony. First, there's decisions he makes that angers some segment of the fanbase. This sort of thing is probably inevitable - the longer AEW exists, the more likely it is he does something that annoys you. For me, it's the Gresham situation, for others maybe it's the barbed wire match, or something dumb he said on Twitter, or the endless parade of WWE castoffs, etc... It colors your views of the rest of his decisions and makes smaller missteps stand out more.

The other, more significant issue is that the company itself is giving off major late-period WCW vibes. The storylines are unfocused, the roster is bloated, and the pacing of the shows makes Russo WCW look like a Ken Burns documentary. Schiavone and Ross constantly sound confused during the shows, which doesn't help and JR's barely-concealed disdain for AEW is irritating as well. You'll almost always get a great show in the ring from AEW - the roster is too stacked w/ star power and great wrestlers for that not to be the case. But, that was true of WCW as well and it still fell apart spectacularly. There's no question that AEW's existence is a net positive for wrestling fans and the industry, but there are some big warning signs that there's trouble ahead.

[DougN]

I think everyone's got good/decent points here. One big thing I want to mention though is how a lot of champions this year seem weaker AFTER being champ. Hangman does not feel special anymore. Thunder is doing better now, but was definitely having a weak run early on and I would still not call her reign strong overall. Both Sammy and Scorpio came out of the TNT debacle worse than they went in. I think there's been too much of a focus on already established stars this year like your Adam Coles and CM Punks and MJFs and Moxleys and Danielsons, et cetera, as opposed to giving quality time to Hangman and others. And I know that they are the star power of the show, but the show had also done some surprisingly good numbers before this max influx of stars came in last fall. There's definitely a way to service both without overlooking one.

The only thing I don't agree with is complaining about the dead weight. It's one thing to complain about Lethal and Dutt being given so much air time in a gimmick/storyline that's not really working, but to just say AEW has so much dead weight and that they have no potential to even add anything is just ridiculous. You're always going to need guys on the low end, and you also never know when those guys can move up the card. And I really struggle with the classification of 2.0 as dead weight when they are getting more and more over and beloved. You can personally not like them, but they've definitely moved themselves up from the jobber role they were in at the start. Now, does AEW follow-up on that? Who knows? But calling 2.0 dead weight is absurd.

One more point I would bring up. I just don't understand why there isn't more thought or effort put into Dark. I'm not saying everything needs to matter on that show -- it can be primarily squash matches -- but there needs to be some storylines that go between the shows and the show SHOULD have some title defenses most weeks, especially since AEW keeps rolling out more and more belts. Dark exists in a vacuum as opposed to Dynamite and Rampage and it doesn't need to be that way.