AEW Discussion

[supersonic]

MJF winning again is about giving Punk a long-term chase to slay this beast, culminating in the biggest match of the year, for the company's biggest prize, in his hometown, a year after having his return match. This is a tried-and-true story, as done during the Rave program that they paid homage to in Chicago.

Making the rematch a dog-collar is outstanding booking, as it gives an easy path to have MJF win but without closure, and pays homage this time not to the Rave program, but the Raven program that generated so much buzz for Punk.

[Shanahan]

I don't believe the AEW title will jump from Hangman to MJF to Punk in span of 3 months (DON - All Out).

[tigermask7.0]

AEW is all in on Hangman as Champ & more importantly establishing him as a main-event talent. They probably have til the end of summer to figure out how. With or without the Championship.

[supersonic]

The lack of discussion here about this week's buzzworthy promo segments and Danielson vs. Garcia is par for the course.

[Montana]

The lack of discussion here about this week's buzzworthy promo segments and Danielson vs. Garcia is par for the course.

Good question.... I imagine this could be dissected dozens of different ways. I think the bigger disconnect is the lack of buzz for Revolution; which is like a week away. Why aren't people talking about AEW, Dynamite and Revolution?

- Tony puts a heavier focus on massive surprises; instead of their World Title match
- Adam Cole loses in an embarrassing way; and is challenging for the world title the next week or so.
- Potentially i'm more interested in the Cody exit, Massive surprises; and other outside factors that distract from what AEW should focus on.
- Mehh, champions , Jurrassic Express is boring, Jade Cardgill. Sammy is alright but i don't really care about him. Hangman is good; but the story as him as champ just isn't as exciting as the chase.
- Overly predictable, and rehashes story lines, angles, and matches.
- Giving away PPV matches on TV ahead of time.
- AEW identity post - Cody Rhodes;
- The fact that the Dark Order 10's and The Gunn Club get more TV time than Jay Lethal and Andrade is concerning.
- Excessive Run In's post match.


Think these things bother fans in different ways. It may not matter to you; or it could hinder your enjoyment of the program. There's probably a handful of other reasons too.


Anyways; for last week. Danielson vs. Garcia was good. Didn't feel special to me. MJF promo's skill ; while i thought it was pretty impressive he could deliver a good face promo; i question the timing of it. I assume this lowers Punk guard; and MJF will go back to being a uber heel; in a lesser-version of Punk's ROH title win. Here nor there; i like feud; and MJF is good; but i don't buy his promos; like i buy into a Eddie Kingston promo. Thought the Jericho/Kingston promo was very good. Was a little confused by if Jericho was a heel/face going into it; but either way it was good.

[supersonic]

There is plenty of discussion going on about it, just not here.

[Montana]

Hard to say for sure... Could be a handful of reasons. Maybe the great matches they have; has already been done in ROH; so it's kinda like a newer / lesser version of ROH; that's more accessible. My wwe/wwf wrestling fans love AEW; where as my ROH friends; some enjoy it , and others don't. ROH is closer to the sports aspect of wrestling; and AEW has fun wrestlers like Orange Cassidy; which can take away from the believably.

I don't discuss AEW in other places; because the common AEW superfan; is about as brainless as the common WWE fan. Like you can criticize something; while enjoying something; because you want it to get better.

I will say, Eddie Kingston promo's are killing it now for AEW. That's been the best aspect of AEW for me. There's a sense of authenticity with his work.

[DougN]

I really don't want to be that guy, but calling people brainless while misusing a semi-colon over a dozen times is not a great look. I'm hoping you were just on your phone and hit the wrong button, but again -- it's not a great look.

I kind of tune out of AEW discussion here because tribalism runs super strong here. AEW forming basically sapped ROH of a lot of talent and momentum and people here aren't going to forget that.

Case in point, you bring up Orange Cassidy as if ROH didn't have PCO and Danhausen. And yeah, Danhausen is in AEW now. That's not my point. My point is you saying "ROH is closer to the sports aspect of wrestling and AEW has Orange Cassidy" is really just being willfully blind to what ROH has been for the past 2 years. PCO was the top champion doing a Frankenstein gimmick and then he was teaming with Danhausen a year later for total comedy.

If you want to criticize AEW, go for it. But at least be better about it.

As for lack of "buzz" for Revolution, I disagree. Is there less buzz for Revolution than All Out and Full Gear? Yes. Certainly. But there's definite buzz about Revolution with the dog collar match after last week's promo, with Danielson-Moxley, with the battle of the Adams, and with the Revolution ladder match since it's got so many nontraditional ladder guys in it.

[supersonic]

AEW forming basically sapped ROH of a lot of talent and momentum and people here aren't going to forget that.

With the irony being that by bringing in Punk and Danielson and positioning both of them at all times as strong, primary fixtures (along with some other but not all booking traits), AEW has far more in common with the Silkin and Feinstein eras than ROH has under SBG ownership. It's a mish-mash of ROH's glory years AND highest consumer metric years, along with a mish-mash of what WCW would likely have become by now and what TNA should've been in its place.

My goodness, the thought of Tony Khan somehow being in position 15 years earlier to have bought TNA when it was bleeding money in its very early days, especially since WWE was snubbing its unjustifiably pretentious nose at the indy scene as a talent pool back then...

[DougN]

If we're playing that game, I still think about if TNA had brought in Heyman and Heyman had snatched up Danielson like he wanted to. I also think, what if TNA had snatched up Gabe in 2009?

I've been sounding the bell on "AEW is closer to golden era ROH than current ROH" for months, though I will admit that has been less and less since the roster has, objectively speaking, gotten very bloated with top tier talent. But I still very clearly see Gabe's fingerprints on the way Tony books and structures his talent, even if Tony won't admit it and even if Tony might be better at it just because of the way he handles TV and PPV. (I said might. Put down your pitchforks.)

[Montana]

I really don't want to be that guy, but calling people brainless while misusing a semi-colon over a dozen times is not a great look. I'm hoping you were just on your phone and hit the wrong button, but again -- it's not a great look.

I kind of tune out of AEW discussion here because tribalism runs super strong here. AEW forming basically sapped ROH of a lot of talent and momentum and people here aren't going to forget that.

Case in point, you bring up Orange Cassidy as if ROH didn't have PCO and Danhausen. And yeah, Danhausen is in AEW now. That's not my point. My point is you saying "ROH is closer to the sports aspect of wrestling and AEW has Orange Cassidy" is really just being willfully blind to what ROH has been for the past 2 years. PCO was the top champion doing a Frankenstein gimmick and then he was teaming with Danhausen a year later for total comedy.

If you want to criticize AEW, go for it. But at least be better about it.

As for lack of "buzz" for Revolution, I disagree. Is there less buzz for Revolution than All Out and Full Gear? Yes. Certainly. But there's definite buzz about Revolution with the dog collar match after last week's promo, with Danielson-Moxley, with the battle of the Adams, and with the Revolution ladder match since it's got so many nontraditional ladder guys in it.

Your use of punctuation is top notch; and sorry you were offended about the brainless comment.

So your basically saying the numerous points on AEW, i've bought up are invalid because i have an ROH biased. Your right; everything is fine in AEW. No problems with that product, what so ever. Keep signing more talent, and everything will be fine, right? Ratings and profits... it's all good.

[supersonic]

I don’t see TNA doing much better with Heyman in charge, although the creative would’ve obviously improved.

Sapolsky was done in the late 2000s, just done. He never once made WWN a creatively hot product when he had a couple years to do so with an endless indy talent pool before The Summer of Punk II broke the barriers to WWE stardom.

[DougN]

If someone calls me unkempt while wearing mismatched shoes and clothes with holes in them, I'm not offended, but I'm damn sure going to call out the idiocy.

And I didn't say your points were invalid. You specifically just said "Keep signing more talent" when I also said that AEW had a bloated talent roster. That's called agreement. If you toned down the AEW hate train, you would have caught that and saw that people agree with some of your points. Because AEW is not perfect and their fans actually want it to be better and not just put on rose-colored glasses like other fanbases. But we also don’t look for any excuse to throw out a litany of petty complaints.

All I did was say be better about your criticism. Don't throw Orange Cassidy under the bus when you never said anything about ROH using PCO and Danhausen. Give yourself a leg to stand on.

I don't need to go point by point on what you said. Some of it makes total sense (Tony relying on surprises and announcements is bad and stunt booking). Some of it is just stupid hyperbole (10 from the Dark Order getting more TV time than Andrade is just laughable when the dude has literally had 3 matches on actual TV in the last six months for a grand total of 18 minutes).

In general, you don't dig what AEW is doing and that's fine, but stop trying to make it like it's the gospel truth because when you do so, you pull all these flimsy things that fall apart after thinking about it more than 10 seconds.

On the TNA front, I think TNA could have been better if Heyman came in and Jarrett/Russo were barred from all events and meetings. I don't know if that would have ever transpired around that time though.

As for Gabe, I think you got a point. I never followed DGUSA or EVOLVE that closely while they were going on so I can't remember how continuous those promotions were. But I did always think that Gabe put too much energy and emphasis into Dragon Gate USA which was inherently going to be a tougher sell than, say, EVOLVE or even FIP.

Plus, I think another thing that killed Gabe is that Gabe helped indy wrestling become somewhat profitable. When he started ROH, a lot of guys would work for cheap. Come 2009 and he's trying to book Ibushi, Richards, and everyone else and it's just not as feasible. Especially as DVD sales had started to go down during this time.

[Montana]

If someone calls me unkempt while wearing mismatched shoes and clothes with holes in them, I'm not offended, but I'm damn sure going to call out the idiocy.

Was i talking about you? No... Did i comment on your grammar/punctuation after you called me out. Yes.

If you toned down the AEW hate train, you would have caught that and saw that people agree with some of your points. Because AEW is not perfect and their fans actually want it to be better and not just put on rose-colored glasses like other fanbases. But we also don’t look for any excuse to throw out a litany of petty complaints.

Hate Train?? After listing potential flaws i said " Think these things bother fans in different ways. It may not matter to you; or it could hinder your enjoyment of the program."

Don't throw Orange Cassidy under the bus when you never said anything about ROH using PCO and Danhausen. Give yourself a leg to stand on.

Like it , or not. Orange Cassidy is a turn off for some fans. If you consider that throwing him under the bus... OK. Were in the AEW thread; i was just pointing out how different promotions sway more heavy on the wrestling side; and others on the entertainment side. If you think Orange Cassidy is more on the wrestling side, so be it.

In general, you don't dig what AEW is doing and that's fine, but stop trying to make it like it's the gospel truth because when you do so, you pull all these flimsy things that fall apart after thinking about it more than 10 seconds.

Again, i'm not preaching gospel truth when i say things like "Think these things bother fans in different ways. It may not matter to you; or it could hinder your enjoyment of the program." Honestly i like AEW Dynamite and their PPV's very much. I just feel more disconnected lately because of some of those flaws listed above. Yes, i would rather see Jay Lethal or Andrade over the dark order or Gunn Club.

Also calling Daneilson vs. Garcia Good. and MJF promo, impressive. Thought the Kingston/Jericho promo was very good. ... yet i'm on the hate train speaking gospel. Not to mention; hoping AEW or Impact buy ROH in other threads.

[DougN]

I don't think there's an argument that some people are turned off by Orange Cassidy, but it feels unfair to say without also mentioning when Orange Cassidy has also been a strong performer ratings wise in AEW. So people are turned off, but enough people are interested enough to tune in to him over other acts.

And again, you're saying that different promotions sway heavy on the wrestling side when bringing up Orange Cassidy. We're on a ROH board so I have to think ROH is at least one of the implied promotions there and if that's the case... PCO was the champion. Danhausen was prominently featured. You've got the Beer City Brawlers on the show as well. If you want to argue ROH is more sports-based, it's an argument worth having, but you can't bring Orange Cassidy into things when ROH pushed lesser gimmicks/performers far more. PCO is more of a gimmick and comedy wrestler than Orange Cassidy is and they made him top champ. It's a double standard.

And if you want to see Andrade and Jay Lethal more than Dark Order or Gunn Club, who am I to argue with that? That's not my point. You brought up that Preston Vance/10 has more TV time than Andrade which is easily proven to be false, so you're just kind of throwing things out there with your complaints that hold no ground.

I say hate train because you're out here criticizing them over very petty stuff that's either not true or hypocritical. Like, I see no reason at all to even complain about the Dark Order when they're really only on TV when they're jobbing to the Elite/UE faction. It's not like they're prominent fixtures on the TV. Even Gunn Club has barely been on in the grand scheme of things.

All I was saying was be better with your criticism. I feel a little disconnected too. Another thing people haven't brought up as much because it will get them attacked is CM Punk. The MJF feud is definitely getting some momentum now because they took it in a different place. But before that, it was literally the same thing most weeks with him. And look, I love CM Punk on a microphone. But after a while, the same segment every week gets old.

[Montana]

I'm really not here to nit pick; but Andrade has had 1 match on TV in FEB; and it was last week. 10 / Preston has had two. It is what it is. Andrade did have a match in January too 6 weeks ago; but like 1 TV match per month is odd for a wrestler of his caliber in his prime. Jay Lethal is in that same boat.

While i agree there are entertaining similarities to Orange and PCO; and Orange does do well in the ratings. It can be hard for some fans to take Orange Cassidy seriously. Obviously wrestling is fake/per-determined. Watching old school 80's/90's wrestling was very gimmicky; similar to PCO. Orange for me; is a gimmick; but like someone in a fight wouldn't act like that. While i do like Orange, and his character and he's unique which is rare for today's product; i almost don't think he should be a wrestler; but more of a manager... maybe a "special" grudge match once/twice a year. At least with PCO it feels like he's in a match/fight. I know PCO and Danhausen can turn people away from ROH as well. ROH isn't 100% sports... but i think PCO and Beer City are far more believable they are in a fight; as they are brawlers. (I've got a long list of flaws for ROH as well)

Yea, i do think there are a lot of little nit picks people can make with AEW: that a fairly valid. May bother people more than others. Like to me; the CM Punk thing is noticeable; but not like a major issue.

I am very interested in this "massive" announcement tonight. Part of me thinks its ROH related and/or Streaming service announcement.

[DougN]

If you're going to say Andrade should be used more, I agree. Same for Jay Lethal though I don't think Lethal is in his prime. But again, I just think you're shooting yourself in the foot by bringing up Preston Vance.

18 minutes of ring time for 3 matches in 6 months for Preston Vance vs 91 minutes for 6 matches with Andrade. Do you see why I find the whole Preston Vance argument really petty? Or if you want to look at February, Preston Vance was in the ring for 16 minutes in two matches and Andrade was in the ring for one match at 12 minutes. But Andrade has also been way more prominent on the show, has a PPV match coming up, and is in an actual storyline/feud as opposed to just a lackey.

And I'm still not understanding the Orange Cassidy argument. If some fans don't take him seriously, isn't that outweighed by the fact that he's still a ratings draw? I guess my point being is that your original gripe is that he's holding back the product, or the believability, but he's adding to the audience by being a ratings draw. Basically, more people are tuning in to see him than are actively changing the channel, so why is this a big deal at all? And sure, if you want to make kayfabe arguments for PCO and Beer City and Danhausen, that's fine, but the bottom line is that PCO is a comedy gimmick wrestler that ROH shot to the top of the card and featured prominently afterwards.

I just don't understand how we "suspend" disbelief for someone who needs to be electrically charged for a match, but can't understand an apathetic slacker who treats his job as a joke. What the hell am I missing?

[roacheyyy]

Loved Daniels/Danielson

[tigermask7.0]

The difference between PCO and Orange Cassidy is if you showed a highlight film of both, only one would be taken seriously as an agent of simulated combat. This is from the perspective of a sport-based presentation.

How the narrative flows relative to this is something different. And more importantly may be the fact that each of them is geared to draw a specific demographic...

One's a Frankenstein Monster, the other Ferris Bueller.

[Shanahan]

The last month has been best AEW run since Early pre pandemic 2020