AEW Discussion

[DougN]

I understand exactly what you're saying and it's not that I disagree completely, it's more that I just think wrestling is evolving. There are less live shows and I think wrestlers would say that 100+ matches a year is probably overkill on your body, especially when today's in-ring style is so taxing.

Young Bucks are a good example, but they also spent years in Japan working six man and eight man tag matches which are vastly different. And tag matches in general are less taxing than a singles run.

I'll give you a good example. In 2015, the year before he broke out into the main event, Kenny Omega worked 86 matches. Of those 86, only 18 were singles matches. The rest were tag matches of varying degree, with the vast majority being six man tag matches. (For argument's sake, in 2012, he worked 60 and 24 were singles. In 2013, he worked 70 matches and 37 were singles. In 2014, he worked 66 matches and 23 were singles.)

That's the way you get people experience. You throw them in those situations where it's 3v3 or 4v4 and half of the wrestlers are veterans who teach you just as much in 5 minutes of ring time as you would get by doing 20 minutes on the indies with someone with the same amount of experience. It's better on your body too.

But that's the Japan model and it doesn't fly here. Indies are not going to be built up by doing several multi-man tag matches. ROH got away with it in the Elite era mostly because The Elite was a hot commodity, but they haven't done it before or since in any type of meaningful way.

So I guess my point is this -- sure, guys like Dante Martin should work close to 100 matches a year. But unless he goes to Japan, it's not going to happen in a way that's conducive to his exposure level OR his body because American promotions are not built on 3v3 and 4v4 matches.

I exclude MJF from all of this. Yeah, I wonder how he'll improve, but him working indies is going to hurt his exposure level when he's already a top guy in AEW.

[Shanahan]

What's up with Inner Circle? Still a group? Why didn't anyone come out to help Sammy when Miro beat shit outta him or when ATT/MOTY beat down Y2J/Hager?? It's weird to me how these "factions" work....also The Pinnacle looks like it is done after less than 5 months "together". Sad.

[famicommander]

Jericho just couldn't help but bury MJF in that feud. Took the hottest young heel in the company, flushed his head down the toilet, then beat him to cap off a months-long feud.

[Montana]

Jericho just couldn't help but bury MJF in that feud. Took the hottest young heel in the company, flushed his head down the toilet, then beat him to cap off a months-long feud.

Didn't MJF beat Jericho like 3 times before Jericho won to save his career? I'm not positive ; but im pretty sure he won a couple matches against Jericho; and MJF had a shirt saying MJF -3 , Jericho 0. Then Jericho won the blow off for the feud. Wouldn't call that burying.

[DougN]

Yeah, in no way did Jericho bury MJF. You can be mad Jericho won in the end, but MJF was definitely elevated by the long feud.

[famicommander]

He's less hot now than he was when the feud started. Jericho latched onto MJF to keep himself relevant like a vampire instead of putting him over.

The program itself was absurdly horrible to begin with and then the fat geezer went over.

[DougN]

Disagree with everything except "fat geezer."

Totally with you on that one.

[famicommander]

MJF is worse off than when the feud started. By a huge amount. His stable looks like a bunch of clowns, having Tully speak for MJF never helped him one iota.

The Inner Circle was one of the worst stables I've seen in a long time. It helped absolutely nobody in any context except Jericho himself.

[DougN]

Sammy is TNT champ now coming directly off being the one to win Stadium Stampede for his team.

[famicommander]

The TNT belt sucks, Miro sucks, and Stadium Stampede sucked.

[DougN]

Cool. Make sure to update your list on your end so you can keep it all straight.

[famicommander]

You can pretty much assume everything is terrible unless I go out of my way to say it isn't.

AEW is absurdly bad. WWE is still somehow worse so AEW gets a pass.

[Shanahan]

Sammy is TNT champ now coming directly off being the one to win Stadium Stampede for his team.

Directly??? Sammy last 5 months he's had 4 total matches on TV & 1 on PPV. Loss in Blood & Guts (5/5),win in Stadium Stampede (5/30),loss to MJF (6/30),win over Yuta (7/14),win over Spears (8/18). Left off All Out PPV & no matches since a dark match (8/25). AEW builds guys up backwoods. Gives them a huge win, then a big loss,some mid card stuff and then forget about them for a month and then the hotshot comes. It's like LSG winning TV title next week directly coming off 12 man ranking battle royal win in May. Come on.

[DougN]

No, you're right. I shouldn't said directly, but it was very clear they had this plan for him. I won't say they build guys up backwoods. That's nuts considering where Darby Allin is right now. But oh no, he lost to Punk. Clearly buried.

For the record, I would have had him beat MJF. And MJF should only beat Darby if they're going to do CM Punk vs MJF.

[Shanahan]

Scorpio Sky as one example was first tag champ in Oct 2019,pins Jericho dec 2019,loses titles in Jan 2020,they forget about him for rest of the year, March 2021 he ditches SCU, turns heel, wins ladder match at Revolution, immediately loses to Darby & jumps right back into a tag team with Page. Sounds like WWE booking

[DougN]

I've got gripes about Scorpio Sky, but he's also 38 so he's not a spring chicken. I like the tag team with Page, but I don't understand why they broke him off of SCU to put him in another team.

But this is also not WWE booking. Scorpio and Page have been positioned prominently and yeah, they lost to Sting and Darby, but that's a high profile match. I understand WWE has warped the idea of what wins and losses mean, but the whole thing you just put out is not a bad thing.

I mean, you can lose. There's no problem in losing especially if it's to a top act (Darby Allin and Sting). You can even lose to a NON top act if it makes sense and plays out in the long run. Case in point, Nigel McGuinness makes his name and impact felt in mid-2006 and then what? He loses to Jimmy Rave twice to close out the year and then again in January. Jimmy Rave. But Nigel didn't get hurt by it at all. (He also lost to Brent Albright randomly too in 2007 so you CAN lose.)

They have Scorpio and Ethan Page with Dan Lambert and whether or not you like the act, it's very clear they're high on them so this is not WWE booking. WWE booking would have been Scorpio turning heel and then never been seen again except in a mad-dash for the 24/7 belt or in a random battle royal.

[Shanahan]

i should of been clear...when I say wwe booking I mean the not so good booking from 00 to 2015. I dont mean the last 5 years of horrific,disgusting and demeaning shit they call booking now.

[DougN]

That's fair. 2000 to 2015 is a big time period though with a lot of ups and downs for bad and good booking reasons. But the last 3-4 years have definitely been a low point creatively for the company.

[monster mafia]

"AEW is absurdly bad"

WOW.

[DougN]

Yeah, the discourse on AEW here has gotten toxic. It's a combination of sour grapes because of ROH love and just rebelling against what people like.

It'd be nice if we could actually talk about what worked and what didn't without people popping in here saying it's absurdly bad or in the same style of WWE, statements that show you either don't watch or you're just looking for things to actively sit on.