WWN/EVOLVE Thread

[Big Red Machine]

Hey, thank you for this review. I’m not much of an EVOLVE fan, nor WWE, but I’m actually really interested in watching this all play out.

To answer one thing, I believe Allin/Briggs was a match because everyone else in the ladder match was a former champion in a WWN promotion, whereas the two in the opener were not. At least that’s what they mentioned in their email thing earlier in the week.

Ah. That at least makes some sense. It would have been nice if the announcers had mentioned that, though, as their emails go to my spam folder as often as not.

[Wilson]

Well, it looks this was the show that killed Everything Evolves. Can't say I'm all that interested in tuning in to the promotion either at this point.

[TYFDK]

Well, it looks this was the show that killed Everything Evolves. Can't say I'm all that interested in tuning in to the promotion either at this point.

I think this is the second time I’ve seen this said. What exactly does this mean?

[Wilson]

Well, it looks this was the show that killed Everything Evolves. Can't say I'm all that interested in tuning in to the promotion either at this point.

I think this is the second time I’ve seen this said. What exactly does this mean?

I am turned off at the idea of Evolve transitioning toward being a new arm of the "Largo loop." I am really offended by Dan Matha's presence. I find the Evolve title shifting hands so quickly to Fabian Aichner really disappointing. And seeing all the stories that have been left unfinished, I don't have much desire to see how this invasion angle plays out. It's really far from the promotion it was even seven months ago. And, no offense, but I don't think saying that I'm not interested in these decisions is abstruse. These results are jarring, and I think it's obvious why there's been a backlash to them.

All that and it's basically inarguable that's what Evolve is a WWE product now (a company which I have real struggles supporting). As someone who came to Evolve to see a top indie develop burgeoning talent, these changes are actually kind of crushing.

About Everything Evolves, it was a great podcast that added to my experience watching the Evolve shows. It being gone really diminishes any connection I have to the events.

[kovs27]

As someone who doesn't watch NXT ro Evolve, are the guys who are invading from NXT at an upper level? I'm curious about if NXT is sending lower level guys to invade to get them more experience or if they send guys of consequence who fans of both products would be more interested seeing in a new setting?

[Wilson]

As someone who doesn't watch NXT ro Evolve, are the guys who are invading from NXT at an upper level? I'm curious about if NXT is sending lower level guys to invade to get them more experience or if they send guys of consequence who fans of both products would be more interested seeing in a new setting?

Looks like they're positioning Evolve as the "NXT developmental." The Street Profits, Dan Matha, and Fabian Aichner all debuted over the weekend, with the Street Profits becoming the new tag team champions and Fabian Aichner as their main champion.

[kovs27]

As someone who doesn't watch NXT ro Evolve, are the guys who are invading from NXT at an upper level? I'm curious about if NXT is sending lower level guys to invade to get them more experience or if they send guys of consequence who fans of both products would be more interested seeing in a new setting?

Looks like they're positioning Evolve as the "NXT developmental." The Street Profits, Dan Matha, and Fabian Aichner all debuted over the weekend, with the Street Profits becoming the new tag team champions and Fabian Aichner as their main champion.

Maybe I didn't word my question properly. Prior to invading Evolve, where were these guys in the world of NXT? I know they weren't main eventers but were they job guys or mid carders or somewhere in between?

[Big Red Machine]

Maybe I didn't word my question properly. Prior to invading Evolve, where were these guys in the world of NXT? I know they weren't main eventers but were they job guys or mid carders or somewhere in between?

Mantha wasn't even on TV, but the story seems to be a lack of space.

The Street Profits are an upper-midcard tag team but who have clearly been on the rise since being put together. Them being featured as midcarders has more to do with the male singles division being featured so much than them not being over, as the crowd always responds very well to them.

Aichner was a guy rarely made TV, but when he did, he was almost always doing short but action-filled and relatively even jobs to top stars. He was the type of guy people always wanted to see have more of a chance, but the glut of top singles stars in NXT seemed to be blocking him out.

[Big Red Machine]

Well, it looks this was the show that killed Everything Evolves. Can't say I'm all that interested in tuning in to the promotion either at this point.

I think this is the second time I’ve seen this said. What exactly does this mean?

I am turned off at the idea of Evolve transitioning toward being a new arm of the "Largo loop." I am really offended by Dan Matha's presence. I find the Evolve title shifting hands so quickly to Fabian Aichner really disappointing. And seeing all the stories that have been left unfinished, I don't have much desire to see how this invasion angle plays out. It's really far from the promotion it was even seven months ago. And, no offense, but I don't think saying that I'm not interested in these decisions is abstruse. These results are jarring, and I think it's obvious why there's been a backlash to them.

All that and it's basically inarguable that's what Evolve is a WWE product now (a company which I have real struggles supporting). As someone who came to Evolve to see a top indie develop burgeoning talent, these changes are actually kind of crushing.

About Everything Evolves, it was a great podcast that added to my experience watching the Evolve shows. It being gone really diminishes any connection I have to the events.

I seem to be the only person who didn't hate Mantha in the ring. I don't love him or anything, but I think the stuff they had him do in the ring (try to make a headlock look like a real submission hold) at least earns a spot in the "wait and see" category for me.

I totally understand where you're coming from and I share a lot of those concerns, but I'm not quite sure I buy the idea that EVOLVE turning into a quasi-WWE developmental promotion means that it won't be EVOLVE anymore. The guys they brought in (with the exception of Mantha, who I think might work out in the end), fit the EVOLVE style very well, and as long the promotion keeps its in-ring style and booking maintains its more "real sports" logical booking, results matter feel, I don't think it's fair to say that it is no longer EVOLVE. I also find any assumptions guys like Strickland, WALTER, Darby, etc. are being pushed out by this deal are premature at the moment.

[DXvsNWO1994]

On the last episode of Everything Evolves, they noted that they got word that Dan Matha won't be welcomed back in EVOLVE. I believe they were the first ones to bring up (before they even recorded their final episode) that a particular term that Matha used in his promo, "soy boys", is one that's been used by the alt-right in recent years. In a promotion that promoted the tagline "EVOLVE is for everyone", that probably didn't go over too well once more people found out about it.

[Montana]

I didn't hate Dan Matha's promo on Evolve, but clearly they brought over the bottom tier NXT guys. It's good to see Chris Hero is coming back to Evolve as well. Think people would be more excited for this, had they not put 2/3s of their titles on NXT guys. Why not stir in some 205 Live guys, while they are at it.

[Big Red Machine]

On the last episode of Everything Evolves, they noted that they got word that Dan Matha won't be welcomed back in EVOLVE. I believe they were the first ones to bring up (before they even recorded their final episode) that a particular term that Matha used in his promo, "soy boys", is one that's been used by the alt-right in recent years. In a promotion that promoted the tagline "EVOLVE is for everyone", that probably didn't go over too well once more people found out about it.

I had never heard the term before. If it's something that is only used by the alt-right then that's one thing, but if it's an insult that exists in other places as well then there should be no problem with him using it.

[Wilson]

The only people who say it are the alt-right, because if you know it's from there you wouldn't repeat it, knowing it comes from a circle of bigotry. The term has somewhat replaced the term "cuck" and is slowly being replaced by "NPC." And if you take the term to its logical conclusion, soy boy is meant to be a transphobic slur, teasing/misconstruing that the phytoestrogens in soy have a similar effect to human estrogen.

Gabe has also attempted to book Shlak, a noted Nazi sympathizer, before canceling that person's dates due to huge backlash. I think he learned from that incident a while back to do a basic background check. At this point, I'm more likely to believe Gabe knew Matha's background, or at least knew the content on his twitter page, and thought "honestly, what's the worst that could happen?" to booking him. I'm past tired of it, even if he doesn't book Matha back.

Evolve is barely what it was even a year ago, and I was really just in a holding period waiting to come back. Lower, lower level NXT talent like Jessie Elaban, Dan Matha, Adrian Jaoude make it really feel like NXT developmental. Pretty difficult for me to compartmentalize how WWE the promotion is now.

[Montana]

I'd also be more open to WWE/NXT involvement if it meant like a free Club WWN / Evolve subscription (maybe even with ads). Looks like currently they are running less than 25 evolve shows in a year, and with a crowded subscription service space, it could end up benefiting the product/live shows. I could see Evolve reevaluating things next year in terms of streaming service... or it could just be picked up on the WWE network.

[Big Red Machine]

The only people who say it are the alt-right, because if you know it's from there you wouldn't repeat it, knowing it comes from a circle of bigotry. The term has somewhat replaced the term "cuck" and is slowly being replaced by "NPC." And if you take the term to its logical conclusion, soy boy is meant to be a transphobic slur, teasing/misconstruing that the phytoestrogens in soy have a similar effect to human estrogen.

Gabe has also attempted to book Shlak, a noted Nazi sympathizer, before canceling that person's dates due to huge backlash. I think he learned from that incident a while back to do a basic background check. At this point, I'm more likely to believe Gabe knew Matha's background, or at least knew the content on his twitter page, and thought "honestly, what's the worst that could happen?" to booking him. I'm past tired of it, even if he doesn't book Matha back.

Okay. So it's not a thing that was being said before but then the alt-right started saying it and the left then began equating use of the term to being on the alt-right even though it was in use before the alt-right started saying it. That makes it's use a lot more problematic.

Evolve is barely what it was even a year ago, and I was really just in a holding period waiting to come back. Lower, lower level NXT talent like Jessie Elaban, Dan Matha, Adrian Jaoude make it really feel like NXT developmental. Pretty difficult for me to compartmentalize how WWE the promotion is now.

I don't have a problem with it so long as the people are able to fit into the EVOLVE style. I thought Jaoude, Aichner, and the Street Profits all did so admirably and didn't think we saw enough of Mantha to judge. But I'd prefer not to see Eleban back. Give us someone like Xia Li or Taynara Conti instead.

[Wilson]

Evolve really needed a change, and if you're already invested in the NXT system I can see how this redirection can be appealing or at least refreshing. But I fundamentally can't be energized by WWE products anymore. It sucks to see this happen to one of the most influential indies, especially one that purported to being story-heavy.

[Big Red Machine]

Evolve really needed a change, and if you're already invested in the NXT system I can see how this redirection can be appealing or at least refreshing. But I fundamentally can't be energized by WWE products anymore. It sucks to see this happen to one of the most influential indies, especially one that purported to being story-heavy.

I see it less as a WWE product so much as WWE giving their guys to Gabe for Gabe to use. Hopefully it will remain the same EVOLVE in terms of style and stories, but with some new talent coming in is all.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

As someone who doesn't watch NXT ro Evolve, are the guys who are invading from NXT at an upper level? I'm curious about if NXT is sending lower level guys to invade to get them more experience or if they send guys of consequence who fans of both products would be more interested seeing in a new setting?

Looks like they're positioning Evolve as the "NXT developmental." The Street Profits, Dan Matha, and Fabian Aichner all debuted over the weekend, with the Street Profits becoming the new tag team champions and Fabian Aichner as their main champion.

...or it's a feeble attempt at Gabe recreating ROH circa 2007 when the Doi and Shingo captured the tag titles while Morishima snagged the World title. Except back then it was cool, now Gabe is a corporate puppet.

[Big Red Machine]

As someone who doesn't watch NXT ro Evolve, are the guys who are invading from NXT at an upper level? I'm curious about if NXT is sending lower level guys to invade to get them more experience or if they send guys of consequence who fans of both products would be more interested seeing in a new setting?

Looks like they're positioning Evolve as the "NXT developmental." The Street Profits, Dan Matha, and Fabian Aichner all debuted over the weekend, with the Street Profits becoming the new tag team champions and Fabian Aichner as their main champion.

...or it's a feeble attempt at Gabe recreating ROH circa 2007 when the Doi and Shingo captured the tag titles while Morishima snagged the World title. Except back then it was cool, now Gabe is a corporate puppet.

Dude... Doi & Shingo winning the tag titles was never about them. It was about The Briscoes. They worked so hard to capture the tag titles and finally one them again one year after their big return, only to lose them unexpectedly in their very first title defense, so then they fought each other at Fifth Year Festival: Finale to toughen up, went back to the US and won the belts at the very next show, and then went on have a record-breaking title reign where they were even winning 2 out of 3 Falls match without losing a fall, to erase the same of their short reign. Doi & Shingo were just convenient people to put the belts on because they were booked on all of the necessary shows (the UK trip and Mania weekend) and because them winning the belts would be doubly unexpected (because they weren't ROH regulars as well as it being the Briscoes' first defense).

[Big Red Machine]

But, to get back on topic...


Evolve 115 (11/9/2018)- Livonia, MI


PRELIMINARY MATCHES:
Apparently the preliminary matches are back. Cool. I always liked the idea of guys working their way onto the main roster, and the threat of main roster guys being demoted if they lose too much.

BARRETT BROWN vs. BSHP KNG- 4.25/10
They had a pretty short match that was fine for a while until BSHP KNG decided that instead of following up and pressing his advantage after he hit a big move and got nearfall, it would be a better idea to take off his boots, then go and pull a different pair out from under the apron. Somehow he got cheered for this. Then his opponent hit him with a dive, and he was pinned shortly thereafter. Well… at least the guy who was an idiot lost because of his idiocy. It’s always nice to see justice done.

There is someone in the crowd wearing a “Russo Club” t-shirt, so everyone with any sort of Bullet Club merch might as well burn it because it has become irreversibly contaminated. Also… what the f*ck is someone wearing a “Russo Club” shirt doing at an EVOLVE show of all places? EVOLVE is the least Russo-esque company in history of North American professional wrestling.

MIKE FIERRO vs. JUNTAI- 3/10
This was almost like a squash for Fierro.

MAIN SHOW:

FOUR-WAY FREESTYLE: Leon Ruff vs. Harlem Bravado vs. Adrian Alanis vs. Jason Kincaid- 7.75/10
An excellent opener that felt like exactly what it was framed to us as: four hungry undercard wrestlers trying to get an important victory to propel them up the card. They were given plenty of time and had an exciting match, with pretty much everything they did looking good (there were a few exceptions, and most of those involved Alanis). The crowd liked everyone aside from Harlem Bravado, who they hated, so they were quite unhappy when he got the big win.

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- fine
A.R. Fox (along with The Skulk) comes out to tell everyone how proud he is of his students Leon Ruff and Adrian Alanis even though they didn’t pick up the win, but he was interrupted by former student and current rival Austin Theory, and Theory’s manager Priscilla Kelly.
Kelly started to talk Theory up but Theory snatched the microphone away from her. Kelly was not happy with this, but didn’t make a scene about it. Theory said some stuff to Fox that was hard to hear because the mic wasn’t working. What I did catch was that he said he should be the one Fox’ students come to for training and look up to as a role model because of how successful he is, and that Fox was a “disease” that was killing their careers. He then challenged Fox to a match right here, right now, and Fox accepted, so we got…

AUSTIN THEORY (w/Priscilla Kelly) vs. A.R. FOX (w/Ayla Fox & The Skulk)- no rating, good segment
They wrestled a short but intense match, and I really do mean wrestled, as 95% of this was them going for holds and stuff. The finish saw Priscilla Kelly attack Ayla Fox from behind. This distracted A.R. Fox, and Austin Theory then rolled him up, with a handful of cargo pants for good measure.
Fox was furious and demanded a rematch while Theory and Kelly stood there smugly and refused. Eventually, Fox amended his demand to an “unsanctioned fight” after the main event, but Theory still refused, until Fox offered to put ownership of the entire WWA4 school on the line (and also, somehow, The Skulk were also said to be on the line, but I’m not sure what they really mean by that. It has never been said that Fox controls their contracts or anything).

DJ Z vs. MUSTAFA ALI- 8/10
An awesome, clean, respectful sporting contest. I know people will be complaining about DJ Z jobbing to a WWE guy, but Ali is going for a title shot in nine days at Survivor Series, and DJ Z isn’t doing anything right now, so what’s the harm in it? Most promotions (including any promotion Gabe himself books) would ask the same courtesy. That being said, I could have done without them celebrating with a replica WWE Cruiserweight Title belt that a fan handed them.

JOSH BRIGGS vs. CODY VANCE- squash

SHINE TITLE MATCH: Allysin Kay(c) vs. Shotzi Blackheart- 6.75/10
This was a very good match. Kay is great at playing the insurmountable force. Unfortunately, the SHINE storyline and the structure of this match seemed to be for Kay to be the heel, but this match took place in Kay’s home market, so the fans were 95% behind her instead of Shotzi.

Timothy Barr informed us that WWN has agree to keep the ring up and the cameras on so Fox and Theory can have their fight.

EVOLVE TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Street Profits(c) vs. J.D. Drake & Anthony Henry- 8.25/10
Drake & Henry attacked the Street Profits during their entrance. This was a little heelish to me, although I can see an argument that they took the Street Profits usual Street Profit-ing as too much showboating. Also, apparently there is Twitter heat between these two teams, so that might have helped lead to this as well. It would have been nice if they had shown or told us about some of those comments before the match.
This was another excellent outing for the Street Profits. This was a hard-hitting match with great heat. The announcers emphasized several times when Drake and Henry accidentally bumped into each other (or were pushed into each other), including one right before the finish. Said bumping into each other on the finish was followed up by a Spinebuster by Dawkins and then a Frog Splash by Ford for the pin on Drake. This led to a bit of a post-match altercation in which Ford joking grabbed for Drake’s belt a few times. This quickly turned into yelling, with Dawkins trying to calm both guys down. Personally, I thought Ford was being a dick, but it’s definitely the type of very real situation where you could understand why Ford thought his actions were clearly intended all in good fun while Drake thought Ford was rubbing the victory in his face.

EVOLVE WORLD TITLE MATCH: Fabien Aichner(c) vs. Kassius Ohno- 7.75/10
The fans HATED Aichner and loved Hero. This match was one hell of a slugfest, and it was GREAT!

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- not good
Anthony Henry came out. He appeared to have drunk several cans of Red Bull since we last saw him. He cut a promo that was extremely hard to understand, and got in Aichner’s face a bit (they’re wrestling each other tomorrow night). Ohno tried to calm him down, but he said something about not being able to cut in NXT “so you had to come here,” which totally buries EVOLVE, and I honestly wasn’t sure if it was aimed at Ohno or Aichner. He pushed Oho afterward so I guess it was him, but I’m not 100% sure. Henry then walked off.

UNSANCTIONED FIGHT FOR CONTROL OF THE WWA4 SCHOOL: A.R. Fox(c) vs. Austin Theory- 7/10
They had a referee out here, but rather than the usual referee outfit, he was just wearing an EVOLVE t-shirt… which still kind of makes it look like it’s sanctioned by EVOLVE.
Fox through a bunch of back elbows right in front of the crowd, and the camera able made it pretty darn clear that he was barely even touching theory.
The match was great at times, but would often lose a lot of its intensity. The last few minutes were excellent and it definitely felt like an unsanctioned fight, but occasionally it just ceased to be an exciting professional wrestling match. I don’t really know how else to phrase it because all of the ingredients were there. It just stopped clicking at times.

This was a great show from EVOLVE, despite the main event not quite delivering. I wish there was a little bit more going on story-wise, but they were down some of their important regulars (Darby Allin, Shane Strickland, Doom Patrol) and they do seem to have tried to start a bit of stuff on this show with Henry/Ohno and Ford/Drake. Tomorrow night’s line-up looks quite stacked, so hopefully that show will be even better.