The NJPW Thread

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Big Red Machine
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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:54 pm

Wilson wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:13 am


Also, patiently waiting for Big Red to confirm if he has a new favorite match of the tournament. EVIL vs. Okada was unbelievable. Big, big, big fight feel to that match. Glad EVIL didn’t appear--at least--to be too banged up.
It was really awesome, but I liked EVIL vs. Omega better.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by ROHfan2002 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:40 pm

I have ranted about the stuff in PWG in the past. I usually dislike the Bucks as well, and do think the quality of the matches in ROH has significantly deteriorated- and mostly because the wrestlers are trying to copy the PWG spotfest style. Ishii in particular boils my blood because he takes it to the next level. In PWG it's just bad selling. With Ishii, not selling things is his signature spot. Like the PWG stuff there is very little psychology to it, and yet people go gaga over it, and the reason escapes me. I think Dave and others have a MAJOR double standard where they'll say "well, the crowd loved it" in Japan (and with the Ishii/Shibata style in particular) but would never extend that courtesy to, say, TNA, or a deathmatch promotion. I remember one point (I think it was the Ishii-Makabe Dominion match a few years ago) where Da, ve was saying that Ishii was botching moves and then started to roll over backwards to come up with this cockamamie theory that Ishii was blowing spots on purpose to make us all think that he was legit hurt when really he wasn't and oh what a genius Ishii is.
Now throw in the spots where he just stands there and lets the other guy hit him and it's like he's forgotten that he's supposed to be trying to win a wrestling match. The goal of pro wrestling is to have a simulated competition and tell a story. With guys like Ishii and Shibata it often feels like they've forgotten that and instead of trying to get the match over, their goal is to show us all how shoot tough they are by taking these shots to the head and not selling them at all. It's not about the characters and the wrestling anymore but about the men themselves.


I am glad you explained your position, and I can understand better where you are coming from. But I do disagree. With both Shibata and Ishii, I think it is about the wrestling and the characters. They do both sell, but there are times in their matches where they get that "fighting spirit going. For both, but especially Ishii, the character is a bulldog. A tough MFer who can take a shot, and will take several, to get one back. I can see what you are saying, but I disagree that it is the men. I do believe when they no sell, it is very much the character, and the wrestling, as part of the story telling in the ring.

But nothing wrong with us disagreeing.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Big Red Machine » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:45 am

ROHfan2002 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:40 pm
="Big Red Machine"
I have ranted about the stuff in PWG in the past. I usually dislike the Bucks as well, and do think the quality of the matches in ROH has significantly deteriorated- and mostly because the wrestlers are trying to copy the PWG spotfest style. Ishii in particular boils my blood because he takes it to the next level. In PWG it's just bad selling. With Ishii, not selling things is his signature spot. Like the PWG stuff there is very little psychology to it, and yet people go gaga over it, and the reason escapes me. I think Dave and others have a MAJOR double standard where they'll say "well, the crowd loved it" in Japan (and with the Ishii/Shibata style in particular) but would never extend that courtesy to, say, TNA, or a deathmatch promotion. I remember one point (I think it was the Ishii-Makabe Dominion match a few years ago) where Da, ve was saying that Ishii was botching moves and then started to roll over backwards to come up with this cockamamie theory that Ishii was blowing spots on purpose to make us all think that he was legit hurt when really he wasn't and oh what a genius Ishii is.
Now throw in the spots where he just stands there and lets the other guy hit him and it's like he's forgotten that he's supposed to be trying to win a wrestling match. The goal of pro wrestling is to have a simulated competition and tell a story. With guys like Ishii and Shibata it often feels like they've forgotten that and instead of trying to get the match over, their goal is to show us all how shoot tough they are by taking these shots to the head and not selling them at all. It's not about the characters and the wrestling anymore but about the men themselves.

I am glad you explained your position, and I can understand better where you are coming from. But I do disagree. With both Shibata and Ishii, I think it is about the wrestling and the characters. They do both sell, but there are times in their matches where they get that "fighting spirit going. For both, but especially Ishii, the character is a bulldog. A tough MFer who can take a shot, and will take several, to get one back. I can see what you are saying, but I disagree that it is the men. I do believe when they no sell, it is very much the character, and the wrestling, as part of the story telling in the ring.

But nothing wrong with us disagreeing.
[/quote]
I definitely like Ishii better than Shibata and he has definitely toned down the stuff that annoys me in most of his matches over the past year or so. I think it's really a case of him having done the no-selling in every match making it feel cheap. Doing something too often makes it lose it's effectiveness. For example, I loved his match with Tanahashi, and aside from that one flurry where he randomly no-sold forearms to the head, I thought all of the fighting spirit stuff was timed extremely well. I think fighting spirit and no selling are not the sort of thing that should be done in every one of your matches because it inherently makes it less exciting when he does.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:06 am

I draw the line with Black or Lesnar or Ishii or Shibata; guys who look like and are legit bad asses vs. the no sell Lio Rush piledriver through a table. Fucking stupid and totally undermines the basic fundamentals of professional wrestling.

I like The Young Bucks and I tend to give them leeway with this because they do tell a subdued story within​ the scope of a match. They have made their brand as a high octane spotfest, but there is creativity with what they convey.

But with some of these guys... where do you draw the line​? The art of drawing emotional investment out of the viewer is being lost. Pretty soon all this shit is going to look the same. Too bad we can't have Janela/Rush 2, maybe the former can take out a shotgun and shoot Lio Rush and watch him no sell that too; because right now Rush might as well be Superman.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:00 am

I fully expect Naito vs. Omega in the Climax Finals to be Match Of The Year.

I feel these 2 guys are the Top 2 wrestlers in the world right now. I thought their match last year was fucking incredible.

That's my two cents.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by ICHIFUJI » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:39 am

Beside G1 final,
2 Tag titlematch and TANA-ZSJ are good.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Montana » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:58 pm

This was my first G1, and at first i was a little overwhelmed by the concept with so many shows in a short period of time. I made my way through it, and was able to keep current with the shows until the end. Here's just a handful of random thoughts.

- Naito... I know this will sound bad... but I just don't see him as the top guy in NJPW. Very good wrestler, but just seems to be missing something for me. I know he was a major heel, and i assume he's kinda turned face now. Maybe that's whats throwing me off. Again, very talented... i just don't see how he's on the same level as Omega/Okada right now.

- Omega vs Okada is basically wrestling perfection in my opinion. The way they hit moves and sell them if flawless. Very interested to watch their careers progress.

- NJPW world .... makes me wish ROH had it's own site, or just merged with NJPW. Very convenient.

- Ishii - He's probably my favorite wrestler in NJPW. Such a bad ass.

- Juice Robinson, to start the tournament i was surprised he was so over in Japan..... after the tournament i see why. Pretty sure i heard the announcers say "paul dropped the ball on that one" referring to Juice. I liked how he and evil pulled off the major upsets.

- Sanada , Again, look forward to see where his career takes him. Seems like he's got all the talent to be a main event talent.

toru Yano - Didn't get him at first, but now i do.

All in all, i'm really liking NJPW. Kinda sad how japanese wrestlers who don't speak english are getting more over for me than WWE wrestlers.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Big Red Machine » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:42 am

Montana wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:58 pm


- Naito... I know this will sound bad... but I just don't see him as the top guy in NJPW. Very good wrestler, but just seems to be missing something for me. I know he was a major heel, and i assume he's kinda turned face now. Maybe that's whats throwing me off. Again, very talented... i just don't see how he's on the same level as Omega/Okada right now.
I on the same page as you about Naito. The fact that he is doing all of this heelish stuff and is booked in the heel role but gets reacted to like a babyface really throws me off. I love him in the ring, but I don't understand why Gedo insists on keeping him heel.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Wilson » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:42 pm

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:42 am
Montana wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:58 pm
- Naito... I know this will sound bad... but I just don't see him as the top guy in NJPW. Very good wrestler, but just seems to be missing something for me. I know he was a major heel, and i assume he's kinda turned face now. Maybe that's whats throwing me off. Again, very talented... i just don't see how he's on the same level as Omega/Okada right now.
I on the same page as you about Naito. The fact that he is doing all of this heelish stuff and is booked in the heel role but gets reacted to like a babyface really throws me off. I love him in the ring, but I don't understand why Gedo insists on keeping him heel.
@Montana I sort of agree in that Naito doesn't appeal to me the same way that Okada or Omega does, yet Naito can also have amazing matches in which he's not trying to push his body to its furthest limits. Worth noting that even though he is getting a bigger reaction now than ever, he was probably most interesting in 2016, where his character arc became complete in winning the IWGP championship. Despite his entrance being one of my most cherished things going on in wrestling today, his character just doesn't feel as vital. Also, what a tournament, huh? This is probably the best wrestling I have ever seen, maybe even the best I will ever witness.

@Big Red Machine Given that Okada and Tanahashi are clear-cut faces and that Omega is on the fast track to babyface-dom, Naito ipso facto has to play a heel for the foreseeable future. Not to mention that his turning face would probably have be aligned with the entire LIJ faction, most of whom aren't really ready to be turned despite being popular.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Big Red Machine » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:50 pm

Wilson wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:42 pm
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:42 am
Montana wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:58 pm
- Naito... I know this will sound bad... but I just don't see him as the top guy in NJPW. Very good wrestler, but just seems to be missing something for me. I know he was a major heel, and i assume he's kinda turned face now. Maybe that's whats throwing me off. Again, very talented... i just don't see how he's on the same level as Omega/Okada right now.
I on the same page as you about Naito. The fact that he is doing all of this heelish stuff and is booked in the heel role but gets reacted to like a babyface really throws me off. I love him in the ring, but I don't understand why Gedo insists on keeping him heel.
@Montana I sort of agree in that Naito doesn't appeal to me the same way that Okada or Omega does, yet Naito can also have amazing matches in which he's not trying to push his body to its furthest limits. He is getting the biggest reaction now than he ever has but perhaps his most interesting was 2016, where his character arc became complete in winning the IWGP championship. Despite his entrance being one of my most cherished things going on in wrestling today, his character just doesn't feel as vital. Also, what a tournament, huh? This is probably the best wrestling I have ever seen, maybe even the best I will ever witness.

@Big Red Machine Given that Okada and Tanahashi are clear-cut heels and that Omega is on the fast track to babyface-dom, Naito ipso facto has to play a heel for the foreseeable future. Not to mention that his turning face would probably have be aligned with the entire LIJ faction, most of whom aren't really ready to be turned despite being popular.
They could move to a more 90s All Japan style where even the heels aren't really that heelish.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:25 pm

All of you guys are missing the point on Naito. His character just does what he wants. It's not a heel or face thing. He spits on everybody and yet gets cheered. It's brilliant.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Wilson » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:06 am

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:50 pm
They could move to a more 90s All Japan style where even the heels aren't really that heelish.
What you’re asking for honestly sounds a lot like what NJPW is doing now. Keeping Naito and LIJ heel are helping them in popularity. They are over, have--for the most part--bite to their characters, and win matches clean. Generally, they are treated as faces excepting that they don’t work sympathy heat in their matches.
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:25 pm
All of you guys are missing the point on Naito. His character just does what he wants. It's not a heel or face thing. He spits on everybody and yet gets cheered. It's brilliant.
Almost everything about Naito and his character is brilliant, but his booking has kind of kept him treading water for the past twelve months. Hopefully, putting him back in the main event picture adds more stripes to his character/story. This Okada/Naito feud should put Naito over the top as a star.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Wilson » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:23 pm

Late to this, but I saw some familiar names in the VOW G1 Climax Pick 'Ems. Big congrats to stevenmason and King of Indy Style for making the top three. Take a knee, lads.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Big Red Machine » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:25 am

Wilson wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:06 am
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:50 pm
They could move to a more 90s All Japan style where even the heels aren't really that heelish.
What you’re asking for honestly sounds a lot like what NJPW is doing now. Keeping Naito and LIJ heel are helping them in popularity. They are over, have--for the most part--bite to their characters, and win matches clean. Generally, they are treated as faces excepting that they don’t work sympathy heat in their matches.
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:25 pm
All of you guys are missing the point on Naito. His character just does what he wants. It's not a heel or face thing. He spits on everybody and yet gets cheered. It's brilliant.
Almost everything about Naito and his character is brilliant, but his booking has kind of kept him treading water for the past twelve months. Hopefully, putting him back in the main event picture adds more stripes to his character/story. This Okada/Naito feud should put Naito over the top as a star.
If you want to have LIJ spitting on guys to be dicks or whatever then that's fine, but they need to stop doing chairshots in basically every match, especially when the chairshots seem so inconsequential (by which I mean they don't contribute more to the match than doing any old move the targeted body-part would) and they just hurt the matches by destroying the referee's credibility. The best thing that could possibly happen to New Japan would be for Jim Cornette to be put in charge of agenting (not booking, but agenting) all of the matches so we can cut out the stupid bullsh*t that should obviously be DQs or count-outs but never are for absolutely no reason. The worst thing about New Japan (aside from Tanahashi's booking)- and this year's G1 really drove it home- is that the rules are so inconsistently enforced that it often makes the matches feel fake because the rules seem to bend to the needs of the match, no matter what happens. Cornette would never tolerate that sort of thing (and really no booker or promoter ever should).

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Wilson » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:44 am

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I think some of the chair spots are there to be crutches for guys like EVIL and Taichi. It turns me off a lot, too. At least Gedo knows that's its pretty much unacceptable booking/agenting for main event matches.

What's been so wrong with Tanahashi's booking? It's not particularly inspiring but it hasn't been irking me all that much. Do you think they should just be getting more out of him?

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by DXvsNWO1994 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:12 am

I thought this year's G1 was awesome!!! I would say that Naito/Omega was the best match of the tournament, followed by Okada/Omega & Naito/Ibushi.

The A Block was amazing. Probably one of the best blocks in recent memory, when you're talking about overall match quality. Even the guys who were the "dead weight" (Fale & Makabe) more than held their own and had a number of really good matches. For the B Block, pretty much anything that didn't involve Suzuki, Yano, or Tama Tonga (with a few exceptions) was great. Elgin had two fantastic matches with Okada & Omega, Kojima & SANADA always delivered, and both EVIL & Juice really emerged from this tournament as stars.
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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:10 am

Yeah, I am behind in viewing this. AXS just started showing this last night and what a way to start it. ZSJ vs. Tanahashi was really good. ZSJ looked impressive coming out of this with the tapout by Tanahashi. Naito vs. Ibushi was really good. The closing 7 minutes or so was put together really well.

AXS has put more effort into the packaging of the tournament this year. I love JR and all, but he has to go. Bring back Mauro please.

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Re: The NJPW Thread - G1 Climax

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:15 am

Wilson wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:44 am
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I think some of the chair spots are there to be crutches for guys like EVIL and Taichi. It turns me off a lot, too. At least Gedo knows that's its pretty much unacceptable booking/agenting for main event matches.

What's been so wrong with Tanahashi's booking? It's not particularly inspiring but it hasn't been irking me all that much. Do you think they should just be getting more out of him?
It looks like Tanahashi will be filling in the Nakamura role with the IC title. I am with you. It's not inspiring, but what else are they going to do with him?

Yeah the chair shots are totally unnecessary and don't do a fucking thing to enhance the story. At this point EVIL doesn't need that for his matches.

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Re: The NJPW Thread

Post by WebConn » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:06 am

Just watched the G-1 Special in USA Night 1 Show and holy cow it was awesome. I reviewed the show on my podcast, if you wanna listen to it here is the link: https://soundcloud.com/websweeklywrestl ... ode-part-2

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Re: The NJPW Thread

Post by DXvsNWO1994 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:50 pm

Not sure these have been posted here yet, but here are the notable matches for the big shows on the upcoming Destruction Tour:

Destruction in Fukushima
Fukushima, Japan 9/10/17

- NEVER Openweight Title - Minoru Suzuki vs. "Unbreakable" Michael Elgin
- NEVER Openweight Six-Man Tag Team Titles - Los Ingobernables de Japon (BUSHI, EVIL, & SANADA) vs. CHAOS ("Rainmaker" Kazuchika Okada, Rocky Romero, & Toru Yano)
- CHAOS (Tomohiro Ishii & Will Ospreay) vs. Los Ingobernables de Japon (Tetsuya Naito & Hiromu Takahashi)
- IWGP Heavyweight Tag Team Titles - Three-Way Tag Team Match - War Machine vs. The Guerrillas of Destiny vs. The Killer Elite Squad

Destruction in Hiroshima
Hiroshima, Japan 9/16/17

- IWGP Intercontinental Title - Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Zack Sabre Jr.
- IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title - KUSHIDA vs. El Desperado
- IWGP Heavyweight Tag Team Titles - Three-Way Tag Team Match - War Machine vs. The Guerrillas of Destiny vs. The Killer Elite Squad
- IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Titles - Funky Future (Ricochet & Ryusuke Taguchi) vs. Suzuki-gun (Taichi & Yoshinobu Kanemaru)
- Six-Man Tag - Kota Ibushi, "Unbreakable" Michael Elgin, & Togi Makabe vs. Suzuki-gun (Minoru Suzuki, Taka Michinoku, & Takashi Iizuka) *
- The Bullet Club (Chase Owens & Yujiro Takahashi) vs. Roppongi Vice **

* I believe this is Kota Ibushi's only match on the entire tour
** This will be the last official time that Rocky Romero & Trent Beretta will team together (at least in New Japan).

Destruction in Kobe
Kobe, Japan 9/24/17

- IWGP United States Title - Kenny Omega vs. Juice Robinson
- CHAOS ("Rainmaker" Kazuchika Okada & Will Ospreay) vs. Los Ingobernables de Japon (EVIL & Hiromu Takahashi)
- IWGP Heavyweight Tag Team Titles - Three-Way Tag Team Match - War Machine vs. The Guerrillas of Destiny vs. The Killer Elite Squad

Also, here's the early card for King Of Pro Wrestling 2017:

- IWGP Heavyweight Title - "Rainmaker" Kazuchika Okada vs. EVIL
- Tokyo Dome Briefcase - Tetsuya Naito vs. Tomohiro Ishii
-
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